An option to phx.new would provide two ways of doing the exact same thing, which actually could harm newcomers with an unnecessary choice. Our goals with Phoenix defaults have always been sane defaults that are easily customized for those that require it. Wrt to DDD, we treat the the web as the domain. Grouping templates, views, and controllers is file organization, which the proposed alternative is just fine, but not something the Phoenix team views as preferable. But the point is there is nothing special about our defaults, and to achieve your own desires you can use the same options we use to ship our own out-of-the-box behaviour.
Fair enough. I see your point about not wanting to add an option that is a variation over the same.
Hey @chrismccord, it’s great to hear your thoughts on this issue
I feel I’m missing something here. Where would this code go? I’m assuming it would replace the default in
use Phoenix.View, root: "lib/hello_web/templates", namespace: HelloWeb
If that’s the case then wouldn’t this just move the template root to another folder for all views? My goal is to customize the template folder per view.
Another way to interpret your suggestion is to add that line inside each view, i.e.
defmodule HelloWeb.UserView do use HelloWeb, :view use Phoenix.View, root: "lib/hello_web/user/templates", path: "*" end
If that’s the case, then I think we’d have to remove the call to
use Phoenix.View in the
HelloWeb module, otherwise it would be called twice.
Wrt to DDD, we treat the the web as the domain.
Fair enough. I can see this being easier to grasp for most people starting with Phoenix. It’s just for us who got accustomed to organizing code by domain it wasn’t so obvious, hence my question
Correct, you could either use @tme_317’s example and keep the code inside the
view function of AppWeb, or you could remove that line and call
use Phoenix.View, ... as in each view.
Great! Thanks again for chiming in
For any application using Phoenix, the web is a delivery mechanism and not a Domain.
i.e. a todolist app might have two domains Tasks & UserManagement, they are both available over the web but there is no web domain.
Within Phoenix the web can be considered a domain but that would be an argument for how the Phoenix project might order its code and should not be a concern of the end user.
I made some similar comments in my recent talk on the MVC architecture. This is the resource I use to explain my reasoning is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohesion_(computer_science)
Grouping things because they are “controllers” is Logical cohesion and according to that page that is the second “worst” type of cohesion.
I think we actually agree on this point:
Phoenix is indeed only the web interface to your application. The Tasks and UserManagement contexts would live outside of
This would be true if we encouraged users to write their application and web code together, such as
app/user_management/controller.ex|user_management.ex, but this would directly couple app code and web code together. If we agree the Phoenix is the delivery mechanism to your application, then it absolutely makes sense to group controllers together, because we are only concerned with dispatching web requests into our application, and converting the results into responses.
For example, if we look at the web directory structure of such an app:
app_web controllers user_controller.ex task_controller.ex api v1 task_controller.ex resolvers task_resolver.ex
It passes the test of screaming its intent, within the context of The Web. We are translating user and tasks requests into responses. Those controllers may hook into entirely decoupled parts of our application. With a glance, I can immediately see what the web layer is responsible for, down to handling user requests, a JSON an API, and servicing graphql clients for tasks. If the app had grouped the directories per user/task, I would need to hunt down what the web story actually looks like.
So for me our defaults encourage better application design exactly because the web side is only focused on being the delivery mechanism. Of course we don’t force this on folks and you are free to structure your directories as you see fit
Hopefully that gives insight to our dir structure.
A feature based folder structure simply divides the web context into smaller sub-contexts, still within the context of the web/presentation. The web part is still just as much focused on being the delivery mechanism. I fail to see how a folder structure like e.g. the one below is less clear than the existing one:
app_web task task_controller.ex task_channel.ex templates edit.html.eex index.html.eex ...
Rails popularized the MVC architecture — but Rail’s version is in many ways a misreading/reconceptualization of the original proposal [1, 2]. It works completely fine, but I don’t think it’s a given it’s best way to do it; I think it’s more a question of what one is most familiar with.
I think of it as slicing things horizontally vs. vertically. Rails slices things into horizontal layers, but an argument could also be made for vertical slicing .
Django is one example of an alternative solution, .NET’s Razor Pages is another novel and simple way of doing it.
MVC has been subject to re-interpretation over the years - almost to the point of meaninglessness. The web model (Server MVC) goes back to the JSP Model 2 Archtecture (1998) - and really only has a vague resemblance to the pattern outlined in 1979 by Trygve Reenskaug.
POSA1 gets into Trygve’s MVC and describes the distribution of responsibilities as :
- Creates and initializes it’s associated controller (***)
- Displays information to the user
- Implements the update procedure (***)
- Retrieves data from the model (***)
- Provides functional core of the application
- Registers dependent views and controllers
- Notifies dependent components about data changes
- Accepts user inputs as events
- Translates events to service requests for the view
- Implements the update procedure, if required
In Server MVC the View looses a lot of responsibilities (***) - i.e. it is comparatively anemic leading typically to a Page Controller.
Interestingly POSA1 also identifies the Document-View pattern as the result of combining the View and Controller into a single component. And as a matter of fact:
Objects and the Web. Alan Knight, Naci Dai (2002)
POSA1 further lists under MVC liabilities:
Point: in many situations the controller and view are so closely related they may as well be considered belonging to the same component.
Counterpoint: What about an implementation style where most pages are composed of fragment markup rather than all-in-one page markup, most likely because you are reusing “widget skins”? In OO this would be approached with Presentation-Abstraction-Control (PAC)/Hierarchical MVC (HMVC) but in Server MVC you tend to be stuck with controllers that operate at page granularity - which doesn’t match the granularity of your fragment markup.
So depending on the implementation style one can argue both ways - and once again we arrive at the universally dreaded “it depends” (on the details).
As far as I can tell the default organization under (
?_web) inside a Phoenix project is favouring making reuse of fragment markup between page controllers as easy as possible (whether or not there are significant opportunities for reuse (or legitimate DRY)).
I think this is a very good argument!
The question is is it better to have e.g. UserController and TaskController in the same folder, or would it be better to have UserController, UserView, and corresponding templates in the same folder? I currently can’t see much benefits of the former approach, and I can confirm that I’m occasionally annoyed by the current folder structure when working on the web part. I frequently find I need to navigate between separate folders, which is a bit distracting.
In my experience, most often I need to make changes to all the three aspects of a single entity (e.g. a User), so it seems that grouping per entity would work better for the most cases I’ve seen.
Personally, I’ll think about trying out the alternative approach in my next project.
Will be keen to hear your thoughts.
I have a project set up like this e.g.
www - sign_up.ex - sign_up.html.eex
.ex file contains a module that handles both the GET and POST action, so serving the sign up page and the action of signing up are co located. It has worked very well for us and allowed us to discover larger bounded contexts as needed
As a beginner trying to figure things out, I’m also a bit puzzled by this topic. I come from Django and one of the nice things about it is that it allows to divide a project into apps that can be plugged into different projects. That allows developers to build projects by combining existing packaged apps along with their own apps. Each app bundles a data access layer (models), a web request handling layer (views) and templates. It’s a quite practical approach that has allowed a thriving ecosystem of reusable apps. I’m wondering how we could achieve similar re-usability of web projects “chunks” in Phoenix. Clearly in Django the goal of isolating the web from domain logic isn’t as strong as in Phoenix though. Because of my background, this is a concern that still seems a bit theoretical to me. I’m not judging because I’m still trying to figure things out (and certainly don’t want to add more negativity to this thread). I just thought my perspective might bring something to the debate since I understand the majority of Phoenix users tend to come from Rails.
I have a limited experience with Django (so a lot of what I’ll say is probably wrong) but I think it tracks with what you’re describing. Django tends to create vertical slices of functionality with its apps. That means that you can get something out of the box that encompasses the entire functionality from views to the database. Rails supported something similar in what they called engines and some libraries took advantage of them. Some people loved them but my impression around the community was that people generally didn’t use them other then by happenstance in the libraries they pulled in. The trend was for people to divide much more functionality “horizontally”. I think that trend continues in Phoenix and elixir and finding the right way to further divide those horizontals is a lot of what this conversation is about from what I can tell.
While there are a bunch of different ways to create re-usable bits in elixir, if you’re talking about re-usability in phoenix specifically than its important to understand that despite providing configuration for a lot of things, phoenix itself is a way to handle requests (with plug underneath), a way to render views and channels. So if you want to provide functionality for phoenix one of the easiest ways is to provide Plugs that can be added into your existing pipelines. If you want to provide a larger vertical slice of functionality then it requires more manual steps for the end user. ExAdmin might be a good example of that: https://github.com/smpallen99/ex_admin
Given the diversity of opinion in this thread, I don’t think there will be one right way of organizing code in a web context. Preference and background (django, rails, ddd, etc) will play a role in how people organize their code.
My understanding is that the philosophy of Elixir and Phoenix is to build a small core that can be customized for various scenarios and use cases. While the default code organization of Phoenix is oriented towards how it separates concerns (controllers, views, templates, channels), it’s still possible to transpose it to be domain-oriented. However, there a couple of issues that I found doing this: a) it’s not quite obvious how to do it, and b) the changes required felt more like a work-around rather than a supported, well-documented change.
I still think that a domain-oriented code organization, even in the web part of a project, is more favorable for a lot of users. The main reason is this:
In my experience, making a change usually involves touching multiple related files across the controller and templates of the same domain (and sometimes adding/changing a function in the view). But with Phoenix’s default organization I have to keep multiple folders open in my editor and it’s quite distracting to find the files I need to change, especially when template file names look identical in most cases (index.eex, edit.eex, show.eex, etc). With domain-oriented folders I can expand one folder and make all the changes I need there.
To draw an analogy, imagine I’m also building a CLI for my app, and I’m using a CLI framework that by default organizes code like this:
lib ├── app │ ├── users │ │ └── ... │ └── tasks │ └── ... │ └── app_cli ├── commands │ ├── user_command.ex │ └── task_command.ex ├── args │ ├── user │ │ ├── create.ex │ │ ├── list.ex │ │ ├── show.ex │ │ └── update.ex │ └── task │ ├── create.ex │ ├── list.ex │ ├── show.ex │ └── update.ex └── formatters ├── user_formatter.ex └── task_formatter.ex
This is of course hypothetical, but it’s not far-fetched. Even though the CLI framework knows where to find things in a more predictable way, it made my life harder by making me spend more effort when I need to change the command/args/formatter in a single domain. I’d organize the CLI code like this instead:
lib ├── app │ ├── users │ │ └── ... │ └── tasks │ └── ... │ └── app_cli ├── users │ ├── user_command.ex │ ├── user_formatter.ex │ └── args │ ├── create.ex │ ├── list.ex │ ├── show.ex │ └── update.ex └── tasks ├── task_command.ex ├── task_formatter.ex └── args ├── create.ex ├── list.ex ├── show.ex └── update.ex
Again, that’s just how I’d organize my code. I can expand one folder and focus on it when I’m making changes. Other domains can remain collapsed, keeping distraction low.
I usually find the arguments for co-locating controllers/views/templates quite intriging, but at least for html templates I often don‘t work with a 1:1 mapping of controllers to views, but I have multiple controllers using some sometimes shared view modules, which would be harder to do if files are supposed to be in the same folder. I can see that being different for plain json api projects, though.
Atomic design might be a solution for shared views: Atomic Design Pattern: How to structure your React application | by Janelle Wong | Medium
Personally I favor vertical slicing; although I usually need one ‘shared’ folder for not 1-on-1 mappings.
With Phoenix I too was surprised the web app was structured very different from the context based data app. Although it might have benefits, it does not seem to make the framework easier to grasp for newcomers (imho cognitive load is much higher) and some veterans also seem to like vertical slicing.
Next projec….nah have to finish some others first
My only dog in this show it this. Theres a level of annoyance when opening up lib > app folder only to find a huge list of files and a huge list of folder, I would rather in that one context have the
foo.ex file live in the
foo folder if only to make it easier to navigate to its related sub folder and files. I got a little ostracized at my last job pushing that agenda once.
I have to agree: as a newcomer to Phoenix, the default folder structure is quite overwhelming coming from something like Django where all apps (contexts) are cleanly separated with distinctive folders.
It reduces cognitive load. I might actually hack together a similar folder structure with my Phoenix app…
As an experienced Django developer myself, the Django app structure encourages tightly coupling business logic with the web/http layer. It’s part of Django’s strength but also a weakness when you want more flexibility (which is inevitable in any mature project).
I prefer Phoenix folder structure of explicitly separating out the domain layer (or contexts) from the web layer. I was also overwhelmed at first but once you create a mental model of how Phoenix structures code it becomes second-nature.
Perhaps unintentionally just by their nature, Phoenix has basically followed this evolution of combining the view and controller with LiveView and with co-located templates it seems to match a lot of previous discussion in this thread. What’s that saying, everything else is just a buggy incomplete re-implementation of
lisp small talk?
I wonder if co-location will bleed back through to static controller/views eventually to unify phoenixes mental model. I know manually flipping this isn’t too difficult though.
It would be interesting to hear from previous posters in this thread on whether they did restructure future projects and how they feel about it now, considering the discussion was 2-3 years ago.