Elixir is not owned by Big Tech

I think we should have zero doubt that if «big tech» (msft, amazon and google) or almost anyone of them alone REALLY wanted to get rid of linus it would just fork and voila, you now have a kernel outside his control.

It doesnt matter if GPL forces them to allow upstream to use the changes if they do changes that upstream does not want.

However Linus seems to have a laser focus on the core technology and not do too much stuff the megacorps care particularly about, so I dont think its likely to happen.

Yeah, but how would that help them in any way? Google tried that with android and later they realized they have no idea what they are doing and they reverted back to following the upstream. If amount of money dictated innovation, then these corporations would be at least 10 years ahead of any competition when it comes to software, but alas I still look at the gmail web client that takes 4 seconds to load when I open it, that periodically sends popups when I close it that it didn’t manage to save my changes…

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Exactly my point! Google teams can afford solutions which require difficult maintenance, smaller teams with smaller budgets can’t

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True, but those languages are from at least 20 years ago. It is much harder to get a language off the ground now. I think what the OP was saying, which I agree with, is that Elixir is one of rare examples of new languages, not from a Big Tech, and has survived past the infant mortality period.

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11 posts were split to a new topic: Split from big tech blog post thread

Whether it should or it shouldn’t be so, it’s hard to ignore that you may eventually need support on a product. If you buy a product backed by a big company (take MS for instance) then the chances are good that they are going to be around in 10 years to support the product. If you decide to go with open source–well there are lots of abandonware products all over the place aren’t there? Again, not that I necessarily agree with the logic but I think that’s a large part of the motivation for the “How big is the company selling this to us?” mentality.

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All true, though that raises the question about why is it so difficult to keep 1-2 Elixir guys / girls around in a big company to provide said support. Not like those big companies are effective and laser-focused on efficiency anyway.

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This is why we should be smarter and make better choices. What we see in the elixir world might be a movement that might change the future of how we think about software and funding of this kind of effort. It’s great to see all these new frameworks and technologies emerging from different team across the world lately in the elixir ecosystem.

Indeed but they think they are. The managers are filling their KPIs, to prove that they are useful and should be promoted. In any case the story with OSS goes back to GNU days and the truth is that companies will always wait for other companies to invest, there is simply no interest in a cooperation.

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That’s a good point. I don’t know–there is a lot of herd mentality in big places. A lot of fear of being the one standing out from the herd because you’ll be the first one to be shown the door in times of economic difficulty.

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I agree it’d be great if we could make better choices. But that doesn’t account for human nature. Many people are risk averse; they won’t try new technologies until someone else proves them out. They’re quite content to swim in the wake of others.

It’s also worth remembering that for most places their primary product isn’t software. A few years ago I was working on a contract at Ford. I was constantly annoyed about how little they cared about the quality of the software they had. A much smarter friend of mine said “Ford’s a car company. As long as cars are rolling off the assembly line, they’re making money.” And he was right of course. Most companies aren’t in the “try out new ideas in software” business.

Don’t get me wrong; I wish more people were willing to give new ideas a try. It’s just the reality we live with.

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Seems like this is an opposite to the argument before of being conservative. If nobody cared about the quality of software, you could as well plug in the whackiest language (as folk usually does, that is JS codebases with 0 written tests :slight_smile: ) there and nobody would care, no? That obviously is not the case, as there is a huge business interest for a company such as MS to get a slice of that pie for “support”, because that’s always how it works, especially in US.

Seems like a very pessimistic point of view. Remember that before these corporations came, the world of software development was a wild west that inspired some of the most innovative technologies. It kinda feels the same these days with these community driven ecosystems such as elixir, zig, etc.

I also think that the accessibility the LLMs are giving to individuals will critically shift the industry, as they won’t have to rely solely on stuck up developers that fight change, innovation and are completely averse to risk (AKA I work only for big companies, I don’t want to soil my CV with your startup).

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that I dislike that Elixir does not have any big corporate sponsors or backers. It has undeniably hurt adoption, which is a shame because it’s a great language. The low rate of adoption means fewer career opportunities, and also difficulty recruiting. These two problems obviously create a feedback loop.

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You’re right about the negative effects stemming from lack of big tech adoption, but I worry about the negative effects if this ecosystem gets the said big tech adoption. It would likely be a classic Faustian deal.

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Was about to reply the same as @dimitarvp. If Elixir gained a massive audience, there would likely be a lot of pressure to change the language (and ecosystem) in drastic ways. I’m not going to give any specific technical examples but you if you read this form often enough you’d see the fairly extreme hostility and vitriol of people trying out the language who feel that it should accommodate their idea of how they think it should work. I’m personally fine with leaving these people behind. At best we get called gatekeepers, at worst we get called cultists. And in true cult member form I Trust The Core Team :tm: and it’s ultimately think it’s up to what José wants.

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What if these two things are related and the “extreme hostility” is actually a valuable feedback that needs to be incorporated or at least considered in order for a language to have a broad success? A general purpose language needs to be able to solve multitude of tasks, and be easy enough to get on so that developers can be trained to use it relatively easy and cheaply. Again, it’s easier to interact with when that feedback comes from a corporate stakeholder in a suit rather than an autistic random writing from his mom’s basement. I know for a fact that the later can be and is frustrating to maintainers of open source software.

I almost would believe that if I didn’t see plenty of toxic examples of people straight up trashing the syntax or bemoaning the lack of their favorite pet OOP feature. And loudly proclaiming Elixir is “trash” for not having it. I can and have taken loads of feedback that I used to better myself in this life but those kinds of people don’t seem interesting or useful in this regard.

For one reason or another – and I am very surprised by this – even having a very casual-friendly FP features like Elixir does (f.ex. immutability) gets people severely confused, almost helpless even. I am not sure what we can do except pack shop and say “okay boys, we are a Ruby now!”. Do you see any other way?

Eh, if you say so. They are difficult in different ways is what I’ve observed. The corporate stakeholder can listen to you for full 45 minutes, then bite off his cigar and then calmly say “Very nice, now please implement this or there’s no next funding series”. :003: If you are implying that they are more reasonable… I have my doubts.


Still, what would you change in Elixir?

My absolute top #1 with zero competition would be to start shoving static typing in Elixir as quicker as we can. In all my Elixir work, having to add more and more tests and carefully reason about return values and making sure we’re not operating on a string when we need an integer or a float, has been the chief problem.

But I am known to be unrealistically idealistic at times. So let’s dial this down.

I’d probably work hard – if I was paid to – on making Elixir less “raw”. There are many things in the ecosystem that are made perfectly to accommodate other libraries… but not always apps. Ecto and LiveView come to mind where one abstraction level up would make Elixir feel much less manual to be perfect for just quickly making apps.

I appreciate how Elixir carefully focuses on providing great building blocks. But… nobody is willing to put the work to make working parts of apps that can be reused, out of these building blocks (myself included). Everyone discovers and rediscovers the same lessons as they are building their app.

To me that feels wasteful and I would work to change it… though thinking further of it, why would I give shortcuts to greedy lazy people is another entire dimension in this multi-dimensional matrix. Feels like we’d go too far into the “automate myself out of the job” thing, too far for my taste. Maybe.

But yeah. Static typing. If Rust was not so verbose and wasn’t still figuring out ORMs and DataMappers and web frameworks, I’d probably be a long time regular Rust dev by now. Elixir has mature choices that, even with some flaws, are pretty much perfect at what they do.

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I am implying they’re more polite.

I had polite people beat me up until my ribs almost cracked, some 25+ years ago, just saying.

You put that in quotes but I was not exaggerating. The accounts I’m talking about have mostly been banned or locked to TL1 status with public warnings from mods.

I don’t view Elixir a “true” general purpose language and I think that is one of its strengths.

Again it really hinges on the goals of José and co, but I would bet on Elixir surviving a long time as the secret weapon of anyone willing to invest in it.

Ash :wink:

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Guilty as charged. :frowning: I just can’t seem to ever get to it… Definitely a bigger and bigger blind spot in my field of view.