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<p>I just threw together this code in an hour or two after frustration with a bug in my project where one dev used a string-keyed map in some business logic where some existing code assumed it could use an atom… and we have a number of similar situations elsewhere, where we fail to do anything to the params at the Router or Controller level and they leak, unchanged, into deeper business logic modules.</p>
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<p>The bug is passing string keys into business logic and not that the business logic expected atom keys, but you’re trying to change the latter instead of the first problem. User input (most often string keyed maps) should only ever land at a place where it’s <code>Ecto.Changeset.cast</code> or otherwise converted to an internal data structure. I would even say modifying those maps (e.g. add something to it) before “casting” to be a smell.</p>
<p>The other place for string keyed maps is if you need keys, which are user defined. But then your whole business logic needs to work with just string keys, because you never want to convert arbitrary user provided keys to atoms.</p> 
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								<p>Yeah, I think I agree and that was more of my first thought, but coming from Rails one of the few things I missed was the convenience of HashWithIndifferentAccess…  I’m inclined to agree it’s a smell and/or bug, but I’ve not seen a production code base without a fair amount of both, and in any case, I was curious what a semi-close convenience would look like in Elixir without risk of atom-exhaustion.  In Rails HWID stores all keys as strings and just converts symbols to strings on lookup… In some respects I think this tension is part of the fundamental dynamic/static type system tension we all struggle with a bit, but I def. agree this library (especially as it is now) is nothing like the “right” solution/didn’t think so when I made it, but I’m still a little conflicted whether there’s a reasonable compromise that’s more automated/lighter weight than all ecto schemas and structs everywhere and/or a graceful path that starts with whatever terrible working code you have and lets you move gracefully and gradually towards that (or another solution) with small working iterations along the way.</p> 
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								<p>This is not the way I’d do it.  ^.^;</p>
<p>First of all, needs a wrapping <code>defstruct</code> to ensure that map calls on it will corrupt and kill it properly.  Need to implement <code>Access</code> over it among a couple of others, etc…</p>
<p>Overall, this is super hard in Elixir because it lacks static types, I can’t think of any way that would reliably work without forcing all access to go through module calls (which just wrapping it in, say, a tuple instead of a struct, like a <code>defrecord</code>, would prevent <code>Map.*</code> calls from succeeding on it, you can’t implement Access on <code>defrecord</code>’s though because of the way Elixir protocols are slightly misdesigned for that purpose, although I have a fixed <code>defprotocolex</code> that would work, but the built-in <code>Access</code> obviously would not use it ^.^;).</p> 
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								<p>Thanks man, yeah I’m not sure how/if I’d do it for real, but was an interesting experiment to try/doesn’t obviously break as many things in my app as I thought it might… few failed tests I haven’t looked at/debugged, but most passed…</p>
<p>Access used to be a protocol, but its a behavior now right? performance reasons I heard?  Though doubt that changes anything…</p>
<p>I’ve meant to play around with defprotocolex, maybe this’ll give me an excuse at some point <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/wink.png?v=15" title=":wink:" class="emoji" alt=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>Just curious if anyone thinks this would be more OK/interesting if it dropped the string keywords and replaced with atom keywords whenever the atom existed (and wasn’t already a seperate key), instead of leaving both?  That would be a pretty trivial change/maybe better default behavior (though it would no longer be “indifferent” access to be fair) but I’m sort of taking a shotgun approach here (in more than one sense) and I think I’d like that better on reflection… but dunno, maybe it’d just be throwing good time after bad to experiment any further with this idea.  (Edited: literally took about 30 seconds so that’s up as a PR <a href="https://github.com/bglusman/indifferent_access/pull/1" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">One alternative, don't retain the strings at all by bglusman · Pull Request #1 · bglusman/indifferent_access · GitHub</a> though really I’d probably pull the behavior out into configuration with a couple options like those two if were doing this for real)</p> 
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								<p>It really sounds like you trying to solve the wrong problem here.</p>
<p>Maybe a better thing is to take a few steps back and, look at why a developer would end up in this situation, in the first place; I feel like all of this can be solve by good design, but that is sometime harder than said.</p> 
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								<p>I have a sort of pluralist mindset… I don’t expect or beleive there’s one-true solution to any problem and like to see a few and then choose between depending on constraints and other factors… so i’m not even exactly trying to solve “a” problem, but would like some options on the table to make working with params, with AND without changesets and structs, more ergnomic… I’m not pitching this as a <em>good</em> solution let alone the one true solution, but I’m trying to decide if it has any place in the landscape of tools and approaches I and other devs take.  <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/man_shrugging.png?v=15" title=":man_shrugging:" class="emoji" alt=":man_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> we’ll see.  I tried to make it clear up front I wasn’t in love with and didn’t really expect much of anyone else to be either, but wanted to provoke some discussion and hopefully be pointed to some concrete, non-abstract pieces of advice or prior art dealing with the kinds of things I see in my production code base better/differently…  When I look around at a few open source Phoenix apps I still see a fair amount of raw strings in their controllers, and I think there has to be a better way is all.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/bglusman/48/9459_2.png" class="avatar"> bglusman:</div>
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<p>I don’t expect or beleive there’s one-true solution to any problem</p>
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<p>This is not about that. It’s about introducing a module/structure that has an implicit and thus potentially surprising behaviour.</p>
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<p>hopefully be pointed to some concrete, non-abstract pieces of advice or prior art dealing with the kinds of things I see in my production code base better/differently</p>
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<p>That’s hard because none of us can point you at our own production code, it’s all company trade secrets, you know. The “abstract” piece of advice you receive, you seem to be not impressed with so you’ll have to discover your own truths along the way.</p>
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<p>As an anecdotal evidence, I have 10+ times successfully introduced big refactorings in Elixir code bases where the PR shows, say, 1650 lines added / 1280 lines removed and I still introduced zero bugs. I am not special or particularly amazing at programming though; good test suite and coding style consistency can and do work wonders, even in dynamic languages like Elixir.</p>
<p>You are aiming at the wrong problem. You can rework your code base to not rely on such arcane surprising mechanics and your project will be better for it. I’d argue the energy spent on such refactoring will end up being <em>less</em> than the energy put into making sure your surprise mechanics work well.</p>
<p>It seems you are dead-set on actually going forward with this though, so maybe all of us here trying to convince you to give it up are barking up the wrong tree. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6c3193d1dd46244da3c8c6f719c9f5e2abdd5ae8.gif?v=15" title=":003:" class="emoji emoji-custom" alt=":003:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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<p>It seems you are dead-set on actually going forward with this though, so maybe all of us here trying to convince you to give it up are barking up the wrong tree. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6c3193d1dd46244da3c8c6f719c9f5e2abdd5ae8.gif?v=15" title=":003:" class="emoji emoji-custom" alt=":003:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>What on <em>earth</em> could give you that impression?  I’ve tried to pretty clearly convey the opposite above everywhere I can, but also that I enjoy the discussion/dialogue/challenge and feel there’s still a lack of specificity to some of the alternatives put forwards besides “use structs” etc.  I’m in no way set on using this for real in any way, I’m just still playing with ideas and thoughts because its <em>fun</em>! <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smile.png?v=15" title=":smile:" class="emoji" alt=":smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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                  bglusman
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<p>That’s hard because none of us can point you at our own production code, it’s all company trade secrets, you know. The “abstract” piece of advice you receive, you seem to be not impressed with so you’ll have to discover your own truths along the way.</p>
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<p>There are open source phoenix apps out there… I started by looking at one or two of them to see what they were doing and didn’t find anything I felt was compelling (but only looked at 1 or 2 for 5-10 minutes each), but I guess you’re saying there aren’t any <em>good</em> open source phoenix apps to point to?  that’s…  disappointing… but I guess possible…</p> 
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