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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tcoopman/48/8112_2.png" class="avatar"> tcoopman:</div>
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<p>You emphasized the funnel to commercial offerings but are arguing that liveview is only for hobby projects? And doesn’t work for commercial applications.</p>
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<p>No I am not saying that. I am saying that when you are doing hobby projects anything will do but when you are doing commercial projects things like accessibility are table stakes, as in if you don’t meet basic accessibility requirements that are codified in various regulations you don’t get to play.</p>
<p>Elixir does not have a LiveView UI component library, not one that has any focus on meeting accessibility  requirements. There is one in the making <a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/doggo-a-collection-of-unstyled-phoenix-components/60355" rel="nofollow">Doggo</a> which I have encouraged as addressing a huge gap.</p>
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<p>Surely if you’re building a commercial application, you’re willing to pay a license for an important part of your stack?</p>
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<p>I am willing to pay and have evaluated a number of libraries including Tailwind UI which was also not a good fit for Phoenix as in there is a lot they don’t provide in the html version that which is addressed in their React components.</p>
<p>The petal components also don’t meet requirements so no I wouldn’t pay for something that is not headless semantic UI with first class consideration for web standards accessibility, keyboard navigation and themeable second.</p>
<p>I am not ok with not addressing a11y concerns and Phoenix has a gap that <em>currently</em> can only be addressed by solutions outside of its ecosystem which means a11y web components or building the UI with a JS framework.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/kokolegorille/48/4784_2.png" class="avatar"> kokolegorille:</div>
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<p>Please don’t be condescending. Most people here do not play with hobby project and do real work</p>
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<p>Hopefully my response above explains the context of my statement, which I thought was clear. Hobby use can get away without meeting accessibility requirements.</p>
<p>I am trying <em>very</em> hard to use LiveView for commercial applications. I haven’t given up on it yet but it’s not the front runner it once was.</p>
<p>My statement was directed at the lack of viable UI components for commercial use in countries that <em>actually care</em> about vision impaired where accessibility regulations are applied and enforced, as in you commit an offense for discriminating and not providing workplace software and tools that meet standards and disadvantage those with disabilities.</p>
<p>Do you disagree?</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/kokolegorille/48/4784_2.png" class="avatar"> kokolegorille:</div>
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<p>Liveview did not even hit version 1.0. It’s unfair to compare with long established JS framework</p>
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<p>I think you are perhaps being a little too precious. Something is either objectively useful tool for a use case or it isn’t. Version labels are arbitrary.</p>
<p>Being particular about the specific use case and identifying the gap that exists and even positing potential solutions is <em>not</em> complaining.</p>
<p>I am certain anyone who needs to get a UI up and running quickly and discovers there is no decent UI components in Phoenix or someone who has to meet accessibility requirements will just breeze on past without a second look perhaps not even uttering a word.</p>
<p>However, they might just find these posts googling and see a potential solution by someone who had the same use case and didn’t just breeze on past and <em>was</em> bold enough to utter the words.</p>
<p>Technologies thrive or wither based on their utility and the ecosystem that grows around them vs other tools and ecosystems that may offer different or similar advantages. Economic forces are always at play.</p>
<p>The LiveView idea has some compelling aspects and as a technology it has some promise, but it also lacks a lot that is needed <em>right now</em> to be <strong>net</strong> productive <em>whilst</em> meeting the table stakes of many markets.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/ryanwinchester/48/9472_2.png" class="avatar"> ryanwinchester:</div>
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<p>Live View 100% unless you need offline support for some reason</p>
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<p>Well I have provided some reasons and some gaps that currently exist, so no LiveView is not 100% not even close.</p>
<p>LiveView <em>was</em> indeed the first choice but it’s no longer the favourite. I haven’t given up on it but I’m not seeing the net benefit vs the alternatives despite all the hopes I had for it’s viability.</p>
<p>Things may of course improve and I will continue to consider LiveView for some use cases.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/d4no0/48/33624_2.png" class="avatar"> D4no0:</div>
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<p>I dream of the day when we will stop designing interfaces like cavemen in html+css and have an all around great visual tooling.</p>
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<p>Well that’s what they do with other frameworks. The designers use things like <a href="https://storybook.js.org/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">storybook</a> and <a href="https://www.uxpin.com/merge/storybook-integration" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">merge</a> to close the gap and risk between design and development using UI components.</p>
<p>They have evolved to having Netflix, beer fridge, a pool table and aircon, a different kind of man cave.</p> 
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								<p>I’m not a big fan of these online editors, the last time I tried some of them, they were absolutely primitive and hard to work with.</p>
<p>I would like an editor that would be similar to things like WPF, the UI builder from android. I know that they are not that advanced in terms of nowadays requirement, however building UIs in them is blazingly fast.</p> 
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<p>I am saying that when you are doing hobby projects anything will do</p>
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<p>It sounds like <em>if You use Liveview You are not professional <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></em></p>
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<p>Something is either objectively useful tool for a use case or it isn’t</p>
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<p>For me it is useful, because customers are expecting reactive UI more than accessibility</p>
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<p>Do you disagree?</p>
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<p>I disagree<br>
Accessibility is completely possible with Liveview, it’s in the HTML<br>
Mentionning version is about the lack of component libraries, it’s new (0.20)</p>
<p>I do not disagree<br>
You need to build your components yourself<br>
I would prefer to use a JS frontend for a complete control, but the reality is I use Liveview and customers are happy with the result</p>
<p>BTW I am not using Phoenix for UI library, but for OTP</p>
<p>Happy XMas</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/kokolegorille/48/4784_2.png" class="avatar"> kokolegorille:</div>
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<p>Accessibility is completely possible with Liveview, it’s in the HTML</p>
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<p>Anything computational is possible with a Turing complete langauge. But I never said anything is not posisble. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/grin.png?v=15" title=":grin:" class="emoji" alt=":grin:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Any string manipulation can be achieved with unix split and cat. Accessibility is just html strings and is therefore possible with Unix split and cat.</p>
<p>While we are at it and no-one needs an editor like vscode or neovim as split and cat can do any string manipulation required in a file.</p>
<p>You can also build a computer out of nand gates, but even more importantly you can do machine learning with an abacus given enough beads and hands.</p>
<p>Based on the argument of doing things from first principkes we should all be using the minimalist Turing complete <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">brainfuck</a> language to at least not require so many beads and hands.</p>
<p>The unfortunate fact is there is no viable Phoenix UI component library nor one that does accessibility in accordance with web standards <strong>the gap exists.</strong></p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/kokolegorille/48/4784_2.png" class="avatar"> kokolegorille:</div>
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<p>Mentionning version is about the lack of component libraries, it’s new (0.20)</p>
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<p>It’s over a year old and little has materialised.</p>
<p>Practically everything else out there for front end work has a viable UI component library that handles accessibility. I think Phoenix LiveView is kind of an outlier in that aspect, along with our trusty friends, split and cat.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/kokolegorille/48/4784_2.png" class="avatar"> kokolegorille:</div>
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<p>You need to build your components yourself<br>
I would prefer to use a JS frontend for a complete control,</p>
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<p>I don’t want to spend months getting accessibility and keyboard navigation perfected, nor building and maintaining a UI component library. It is just not viable from a business perspective to do that when I can be delivering actual customer value with <em>viable</em> technology that exists today. That is the objective measure of any tool in business.</p>
<p>Inpired by the words of Roger Penrose, I prefer to not create an actual universe just to make an apple pie from scratch.</p>
<p>I would actually prefer to <strong>not use a JS framework</strong>. I <em>want</em> to use LiveView but there’s a huge gap that you don’t want to acknowledge or hand wave away. Getting the job done in the most <em>net</em> efficient way, I <em>have</em> to use an external framework because LiveView just doesn’t do it (yet).</p>
<p>Merry Xmas, it’s actually Boxing Day, the 26th here.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/kokolegorille/48/4784_2.png" class="avatar"> kokolegorille:</div>
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<p>BTW I am not using Phoenix for UI library, but for OTP</p>
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<p>Yes that is why I use Elixir, the foundations it’s built upon.</p>
<p>LiveView was a curiosity which I hoped could make things quicker to develop but it’s turned out to be quite the opposite in fact.</p> 
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<p>I hoped could make things quicker</p>
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<p>It did for me. It’s unfortunate we do not share the same experience</p>
<p>My dream components are wasm powered web components… It’s completely portable and quick <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Merry Boxing Day</p> 
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<p>I don’t want to spend months getting accessibility and keyboard navigation perfected, nor building and maintaining a UI component library. It is just not viable from a business perspective to do that when I can be delivering actual customer value</p>
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<p>Are you hoping that all your posts about how liveview is not up to scratch (and svelte or web components are the best choice) motivates someone to do this for you? And for free?</p> 
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