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								<p>Maybe something we could do instead of those hints is an interactive tutorial introduction? It would show the most important features of IEx, the <code>h</code> helper, the <code>i</code> helper, it would explain the stuff with lists, etc. I think it might be much more approachable. It should be strictly an introduction to IEx, and not the language to keep it short. It might give some links to more resources at the end.</p>
<p>Yes, it’s a “separate mode”, where you need to launch it explicitly, but I think it’s something small enough, and distinct enough, that we would be able to spread the word quickly. We could also allow launching the tutorial with <code>tutorial()</code> command from within IEx and show info about that in the banner that is displayed when you launch IEx.<br>
Maybe we should go that far, and IEx should automatically enter the tutorial mode, when you first launch it.</p> 
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									<span>Creator of Elixir</span>
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<p>However, I would prefer it if the getting of help information were explicitly requestable.  By default, iex shouldn’t offer these help messages.  I often drop into iex from a random directory (with no configuration) to play around with a bit of elixir - so I don’t want to see a bunch of extra help information that I have to affirmatively disable.</p>
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<p>This is assuming that you will get a bunch of extra help. We have only a single hint listed so far and it is displayed once per user in a computer. It is unlikely you will be in a situation where a bunch of hints are listed. Plus, IEx supports per user configuration on <code>~/.iex.exs</code>.</p>
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<p>Instead, I would prefer it if iex required you to activate the help system, either as a mode that can be enabled or disabled with a command - or perhaps as a special way to enter a command.</p>
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<p>This has also been explained above. An opt-in system is not going to be helpful because newcomers won’t be familar with the opt-in system and/or syntax.</p>
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<p>Maybe something we could do instead of those hints is an interactive tutorial introduction?</p>
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<p>The problem is <em>not</em> with learning Elixir. We already have plenty of mechanisms for learning Elixir, many of those comment on those “gotchas”, yet users still keep running into those scenarios. Not everyone will learn the language through <code>elixir_tutorial</code> or even through book for what matters. Many will jump straight into exercism and try to figure things out. Or many will learn about the Enum module from a blog post and jump straight into IEx and get confused with those results.</p>
<p>If our assumption is that “let’s have a way to learn the language where we can talk about this and everyone will go through it”, then we already have the Getting Started guide (and yet the problem still exists).</p> 
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<p>The problem is <em>not</em> with learning Elixir. We already have plenty of mechanisms for learning Elixir, many of those comment on those “gotchas”, yet users still keep running into those scenarios. Not everyone will learn the language through <code>elixir_tutorial</code> or even through book for what matters. Many will jump straight into exercism and try to figure things out. Or many will learn about the Enum module from a blog post and jump straight into IEx and get confused with those results.</p>
<p>If our assumption is that “let’s have a way to learn the language where we can talk about this and everyone will go through it”, then we already have the Getting Started guide (and yet the problem still exists).</p>
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<p>That’s why I explicitly said, that the tutorial shouldn’t be about learning the language, but IEx as a tool. As you said, there’s plenty of material for learning elixir, as a language - no point in duplicating it. The tutorial should be exclusively about IEx and how to use it, and some common things you might find - namely the charlists vs list of ints. For now the only things, I would include, would be the <code>h</code> helper, and the <code>i</code> helper with a charlist. Nothing more.<br>
If we keep it minimal, I think it would be completely fine, to enter this mode when you first launch IEx on a machine so you’re “forced” in a way into the tutorial.</p>
<p>Whatever solution we choose, we need to find a good way to disable tutorial/hints when running in production. It would be extremely annoying to see all that stuff when you launch iex on heroku, for example, where each time you call <code>heroku run iex</code> you get a completely new “machine”.</p> 
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<p>That’s why I explicitly said, that the tutorial shouldn’t be about learning the language, but IEx as a tool. As you said, there’s plenty of material for learning elixir, as a language - no point in duplicating it.</p>
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<p>The same answer still applies. We cannot assume that everyone will learn Elixir or IEx in a certain way. If we provide a tutorial, people won’t know about it. If we force it, people will skip it while upsetting many existing users of the language in the process. The whole point of hints is to not disrupt the workflow in the first place (and even after explicitly saying so, look at how many replies we have that are worried about disrupting their workflow).</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/josevalim/48/1787_2.png" class="avatar"> josevalim:</div>
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<p>The whole point of hints is to not disrupt the workflow in the first place (and even after explicitly saying so, look at how many replies we have that are worried about disrupting their workflow).</p>
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<p>I agree with this vision, and think it’s possible to have hints while avoiding too much disruption. We’ve established there will be a way to persistently disable the feature per machine. At worst veterans who find the hints disruptive will only need to disable them once. <a class="mention" href="/u/eiji" rel="nofollow">@Eiji</a> smartly pointed out that a hint could explain how they can be disabled.</p>
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<p>Let’s create a tip about disabling tips! <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/2/20c9c52366de24191270f0b11311379ce60ac82d.gif?v=15" title=":077:" class="emoji emoji-custom" alt=":077:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p><a class="mention" href="/u/josevalim" rel="nofollow">@josevalim</a>’s original example would have helped me when I was getting used to IEx.</p>
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<p>imagine the situation where IEx prints a list as a char list for the first time</p>
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<p>Even though I happened to understand how char lists are encoded, it caught me off guard the first time I saw one of my lists printed as a char list in IEx. Having a quick hint in that moment would have helped me get on with my day and be less anxious about potential gremlins in my machine doing things I don’t understand. Granted, it didn’t take <em>too</em> long to work out what was going on and why, but a hint would’ve helped. And remember,</p>
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<p>Each hint will be show only once. There will also be a function to disable all hints.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately I’m struggling to think of many other hints I’d like to see, but I bet pairing with a complete beginner would expose them. There’s probably some related to pattern matching gotchas, as that’s a foreign concept to most who have little experience with the ML language family.</p>
<p>Some of concerns about hints seem to be that we could end up with too many hints that aren’t useful. Perhaps we should also discuss how to gather useful feedback from users about individual hints.</p>
<p>One idea that comes to mind is giving each hint a unique ID like <a href="https://doc.rust-lang.org/error-index.html" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Rust does for its errors</a>. When the Rust compiler emits an error it includes the error’s ID so you can query for more information, like this:</p>
<pre><code>$ rustc --explain E0001
This error suggests that the expression arm corresponding to ...
</code></pre>
<p>When users file issues about errors they generally include the error ID. This makes it easier to find discussions about the particular error, and even see how its explanation text has evolved over time in response to these concerns.</p>
<p>Another potential benefit of assigning hints public IDs is we could someday support another hint mode called ‘terse’ which emits a hint ID and a one-line title. When users are interested in seeing more they can use a special command to see full explanation associated with that ID.</p> 
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<p>Some of concerns about hints seem to be that we could end up with too many hints that aren’t useful. Perhaps we should also discuss how to gather useful feedback from users about individual hints.</p>
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<p>It is unfortunate that much of the discussion has focused on this concern because, as you said, we only have a single hint so far (with possibly another one being debated). At this point it is most likely this proposal won’t pass because it is not worthing working on this for a single hint. Assigning IDs, a terse mode, and other configurations are pointless if we don’t have hints to apply them to in the first place.</p> 
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								<p>Reading through all of this again, I’d do this:</p>
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<li>Force hints for every new installation. Upgrades most likely won’t get hints re-enabled if there is a flag in <code>~/.iex.exs</code> that the dev explicitly specified to <code>false</code> – which is IMO perfect.</li>
<li>Possible issues with Heroku hosting (or any container-based service) can be circumvented by adding a new flag to iex’s CLI. Something like <code>iex -q</code> (quiet mode), maybe? Let the option be <strong>an explicit opt-out</strong>. I don’t think any of us would be so annoyed of seeing iex hints once a year (or only once at all, ever).</li>
<li>For those who won’t use the quiet mode CLI flag (there might be limitation around different sets of commands for CI setups for Prod / Staging environments, for example; on the other hand, you should be perfectly capable of doing <code>heroku run -a &lt;your-app&gt; iex -q -S mix</code>), a simple function call like <code>IEx.hints(false)</code> should provide a good alternative? I think this might be the main conflicting point right here – namely the people who can’t influence their CI setups in terms of exact CLI commands but who would still be annoyed by seeing hints every time they connect to a remote disposable container and execute a command that returns a charlist. I’d say for those people a flag in <code>~/.iex.exs</code> should sort them. Deploying with anything that involves a bash script somewhere allows you to change a number of files, including <code>~/.iex.exs</code>.</li>
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<p>Thoughts?</p> 
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                  josevalim
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								<p>Please check my last comment. It is likely it was not there when you started re-reading. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Everyone is worried about disabling hints on the wrong assumption it will be a verbose system and users will be showered with hints on usage.  However, we will only emit single hint per IEx command and those hints will trigger on special occasions.</p>
<p>If I am running on Heroku, even if I have hints enabled, it is unlikely the hint will trigger and, if it does, it is easier to ignore the hint than remember some special function or flag I need to pass upfront. Sure we will provide such features but the focus on disabling has unfortunately side-tracked the discussion from what could have been more relevant topics.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/josevalim/48/1787_2.png" class="avatar"> josevalim:</div>
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<p>Everyone is worried about disabling hints on the wrong assumption it will be a verbose system and users will be showered with hints on usage.</p>
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<p>I don’t think so. Most of us simply have notoriously bad experience with systems who never provided opt-out of features we didn’t need 99% of the time. So we’re getting kind of defensive here.</p>
<p>Please don’t take this the wrong way. On this forum, I’d say the most active users are experienced devs and this might skew (or side-track as you put it) discussions away from their intended core due to people wanting things done [mostly] right on the first go – but this shouldn’t be to the detriment of the discussions.</p>
<p>I absolutely believe this proposal must be moved forward to implementation.</p> 
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								<p><a class="mention" href="/u/josevalim" rel="nofollow">@josevalim</a> Don’t give up on this proposal! It will really help new and even experienced users. A one-time hint is perfect and I would not need a “turn off” setting (though it should be provided). If we come up with a decent amount of “gotchas”, we’re good to go.</p> 
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