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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>As I get older I just find myself not interested in people (and employers) who rush to judge. This could become a career impediment but the pull from my soul is too strong.</p>
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<p>I hear you. I actually consider not giving a fig what people think beyond a certain point to be an advantage – even a superpower. The young – my former self included – tend to be obsessed with comparing themselves with others and judging themselves for where they think they “should” be in life because others are “already” accomplishing this or that, or assuming that if people think something negative about you, it is apt to be somehow justified. And also, of not at all seeing other’s insecurities and challenges.</p>
<p>You can’t know the smallness of soul that some asshat interviewer suffers from, what it’s like for them in the dark watches of the night. That they use their ephemeral place of power over you in the interview process to make themselves feel better about themselves, their job, or the quality of their own work, is truly their problem and not yours. Being clear on that allows you not to take things personally and gives you the strength to have healthy boundaries such that the annoyance of the process doesn’t end up being actually abusive to you.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>But when I remarked “oh, that’s easy” for one of the requested changes, apparently that rubbed some of the interviewing team the wrong way, <em>severely</em>.</p>
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<p>Damn. I definitely wouldn’t want to work in a place where people are so quick to flip on a candidate and make negative snap judgements. That would indicate a super-sensitive team environment that’s rife for awkward disagreements. I hate multi-tasking, and constantly self-monitoring and self-censoring is one more task I’d rather not constantly attend to <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/grimacing.png?v=15" title=":grimacing:" class="emoji" alt=":grimacing:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>Having coding interviews and take-home assignments are what’s broken in our industry. I mean just read this thread, amazing people with various skill failing due to some assumption of the interviewer. And don’t let me start on unpaid labour and excessively long “rounds”.</p>
<p>How can we change it? I don’t believe I can change it alone but I am doing two things for it.</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p>As a candidate I refused to do a coding interview or take-home test for all positions that were offered to me including big names.</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>As an interviewer I never wanted a coding interview or take-home test done. Guess what? Turned out especially good for candidates that didn’t look that strong. And would not help with tech. strong candidates you might have other beef later.</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>If it is in your power (like you already have a job, and not running out of money), refuse these practices. If there are enough people like me, we would do it!</p> 
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								<p>Being an interviewer from time to time, I know how it is at the other side of the table. The company I work for (so I) asks for an assignment -when the applicant can’t show us any code (we love open sourced personal projects!)-. The code itself is secondary though, we focus more on intent, thought flow and documentation (or simply clear code).</p>
<p>For senior level (or clearly medior) solicitors we skip it though. There is no need to let them things that make them feel monkeys jumping through hoops.</p> 
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								<p>For some people, it’s not straightforward to present a kind of linear flow of thought, so this kind of paired session cannot capture the whole potential of a candidate. I remember a post of David Chelimsky, from RSpec fame when he said that it’s pretty common for him to start editing an idea, and after a series of attempts deleting and editing, finally come out with some working solution.</p>
<p>These days I participated in a process with several steps, which of some requiring code pairing sessions. I finished one of them, in a short time-box of 1 hour, but I felt that the interviewer didn’t expect my final solution. As this problem involves what I consider low-level OTP stuff, I asked if it was common to make this kind of thing there, when they said that no, it was pretty rare to make this kind of thing.</p>
<p>I wrote a <a href="https://dev.to/marciol/acme-pub-sub-an-elixir-exercise-3273" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">blog post</a> with an alternative solution, more close to what I felt they are expecting, and to take at least something positive after engaging 5 hours of my time into the process, but in general even not believing in this kind of process I’m still submitting myself to it, just because it’s a way to get better opportunities, I tend to be really pragmatic, but sometimes is hard to manage my self-esteem face this kind of situation.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/marciol/48/4223_2.png" class="avatar"> marciol:</div>
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<p>For some people, it’s not straightforward to present a kind of linear flow of thought, so this kind of paired session cannot capture the whole potential of a candidate.</p>
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<p>We don’t expect a linear flow of thought, we do however check for some essential parts that are essential in our line of work (and the candidate should know…otherwise it would show lack of even the tiniest bit of interest in the company).</p>
<p>In the end the interviewer has limited time to evaluate a candidate. That is why having a codebase to show is really valuable! It gives interviewers a better impression in less time.</p>
<p>There might be bad interviewers out there, but let’s not act like they all are stubborn and only pick “what fits their mindset” <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/bartotten/48/25440_2.png" class="avatar"> BartOtten:</div>
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<p>There might be bad interviewers out there, but let’s not act like they all are stubborn and only pick “what fits their mindset”</p>
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<p>Though that might be the sentiment understandably expressed when people have bad experiences, I don’t think it’s the real sting here, which is that regardless of intent, interviews are a poor selection process. I think that’s now as established as that rigidly open plan offices don’t conduce to work requiring concentration. That both are still dominant may partly be due to stubbornness. Everyone’s naturally a bit stubborn about wanting to exercise skills they believe they’ve mastered - there will be vi users long after natural language or mind/computer interfaces (or whatever) render keyboards obsolete. Just as I still like to write with a fountain pen.</p>
<p>But the more important factor is that no-one confidently knows how to do it better. It’s not really a personal failing or ‘stubborn’ to stick to a failed process when no better one has yet been discovered. You have to do <em>something</em>. Personally I think it’s an insoluble problem, inherent to our so-called ‘economy’ (actually a phantom, but that’s not a story for here).</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/bartotten/48/25440_2.png" class="avatar"> BartOtten:</div>
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<p>For senior level (or clearly medior) solicitors we skip it though. There is no need to let them things that make them feel monkeys jumping through hoops.</p>
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<p>That’s the $1M question though: how do you decide somebody is medior / senior? There’s basically as many answers as there are software companies.</p> 
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<p>If it is in your power (like you already have a job, and not running out of money), refuse these practices. If there are enough people like me, we would do it!</p>
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<p>This requires you to:</p>
<ol>
<li>Have a good financial runway, e.g. be able to coast on savings for 6+ months, which not many can do.</li>
<li>Have a very good network where a new job is 4-5 phone calls away. Not many have that either.</li>
<li>Have a very good open-source portfolio. Achievable but most working programmers neglect this to their detriment. I am not big on doing high-quality work for free since I am not well but I can see that this is a very good signal to companies so I’ll eventually build a portfolio. But again, not many do that.</li>
</ol>
<p>The reasons many programmers subject themselves to long processes and/or homework assignments mostly boil down to:</p>
<ul>
<li>Being open to prove your worth is a good signal to the company that you might be a good hire, i.e. you don’t “play games” or appeal to your experience in terms of number of years;</li>
<li>Hope that way to build good will (and a network) so the companies could call them in future again even if the current process goes nowhere;</li>
<li>You are being desperate – let’s not deny it, happened to many of us at one point. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></li>
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<p>IMO the first two rarely materialize: being open to a homework assignment is not a positive sign for you that makes you stand apart at all; it’s a baseline expectation so the value of that definitely disappeared over time (but I do remember a time when it wasn’t so). And hoping to build good will / network is, in my experience, literally never happening by doing interviews. I’ve had 3 companies re-call me during the last 3 years and it was only to repeat their older requirements which I already told them I will not work under.</p>
<p>Building a network happens 100% outside of potential work relation. Not during an interview process. Took me a while to understand that.</p>
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<p>TL;DR: I mostly agree but the programmer has to have prepared their own homework (points 1 to 3 at the start), otherwise they find themselves at the mercy of 20-year old HRs with zero clue how to recruit programmers.</p> 
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<p>TL;DR: I mostly agree but the programmer has to have prepared their own homework (points 1 to 3 at the start), otherwise they find themselves at the mercy of 20-year old HRs with zero clue how to recruit programmers.</p>
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<p>There is no ideal solution. I don’t mind the 30 minute multiple choice basic competency tests (much), but they are usually just theoretical enough and outside the scope of the “muscles” I exercise daily, that I tend to return mediocre “acceptable” scores that, taken without nuance or used in actually ranking me with others, doesn’t accurately measure my real-world abilities relative to anyone else or to any sort of standard. Beyond a certain point one <em>intuits</em> the path forward, whether it comes from raw experience or practical application of “book learning”. Unless you have done a lot of teaching or blogging on a topic, it’s probably hard for a lot of perfectly excellent developers to break down and explain their process than to write and demonstrate working code and survive a code review.</p>
<p>If a company is sincerely interested in me as a finalist I don’t mind spending an hour or so meeting the team and, in a small company, executive leadership so that my potential colleagues have some input into the process and so that leadership is comfortable that I am a “team player” by their particular definition.</p>
<p>Beyond that though I find it a waste of my time if they aren’t sure what they want or are looking for post-hoc rationalizations for decisions I can tell they’ve already come to.</p>
<p>In a hypothetical situation where I found myself without current employment I could get by fine for months without an income (indeed at this point I’d file early social security), but paradoxically I would also have a lot more time and energy for the interview process and might put up with more nonsense to get at least a bridge position to conserve my resources. However I’d also have the option to invest that life force in a deep-dive into an area of interest or participation in an open source project or something. Guess which i think would be more helpful to me in the long run?</p>
<p>As to the question of years of service counting for something, I think that it actually counts for a great deal. It <em>could</em> conceal that I can’t program my way out of a paper bag, but if I have had interesting assignments and good references and am clearly not an asshole it is far more likely that I have some super valuable mature skills to add to any team. At this point in my career, asking me to dance for my dinner like a trained seal is leading with disrespect that I will not abide, sorry.</p>
<p>There’s also the whole question of education. If I had gotten a CS degree I’d have gotten my BS in about 1979 and it probably would have involved keypunching and COBOL and other things of absolutely no relevance today. As it was, I was an autodidact at a time of low-hanging fruit and was too busy making money to get a degree.</p>
<p>Thankfully, this is ONE area where the industry is generally in good shape. Job listings generally say, “BS or equivalent work experience” and I daresay that unless i were in my 20s or perhaps 30s no one would even inquire about my degree or grades because there’s a general understanding that things are moving so fast that you’re no good if you aren’t constantly learning anyway. In 38 years I have been asked exactly twice by a client or employer where I matriculated and by then the answer (“nowhere”) was even <em>more</em> impressive because I had already done months of excellent work for them. It’s not quite the same as my early days when the general ethos was “if you’re not as terrified of computers as me you must be a genius, here is a wheelbarrow full of money, please write software for me.” But it is quite reasonable.</p> 
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