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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/stefanchrobot/48/7657_2.png" class="avatar"> stefanchrobot:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>I’m a backend dev, who “learned” HTML and CSS a long time ago.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>The same for me. That is exactly why I like new CSS features in combination with PostCSS - it makes writing everything much easier and I do not need to care much about compatibility, as tooling takes care about it for me. All of that while I still write “good-old-plain” CSS.</p>
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<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>With Tailwind:</li>
</ul>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">shadow-md
</code></pre>
<ul>
<li>With CSS:</li>
</ul>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">--shadow: 0 4px 6px -1px rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1), 0 2px 4px -1px rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.06);
box-shadow: 0 0 #0000, 0 0 #0000, var(--shadow);
</code></pre>
<p>Even if I learned what that piece of CSS does, it’s impossible for me to write it correctly from the top of my head the next time. Not to mention parsing what it does - I can’t see forest for the trees.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>You can do it like:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="css"><code class="lang-css">:root {
  --shadow-md: 0 0 #0000, 0 0 #0000, 0 4px 6px -1px rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1), 0 2px 4px -1px rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.06);
}

.btn {
  box-shadow: --shadow-md;
}
</code></pre>
<p>Still IMHO much cleaner than just <code>@apply shadow-md</code> as it doesn’t tell me what kind of shadow it is, and unless I will know other TailwindCSS module names I have no way to know just by looking at the code what kind of shadow it will be (whether text or box shadow). And CSS variables are supported in all browsers nowadays, so that mean, that I can have some “semantic” classes and then in subcomponents control everything just via them. IMHO super useful while keeping classes in HTML semantically meaningful and in CSS keeping the information what value changes which property.</p> 
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								<p>The difference there is that tailwind gives you a standard naming scheme for size and shade variations. Just like with a Rails-like framework benefits a team by adhering to conventions, so does Tailwind.</p>
<p>Aside from that, if differences in browsers appear, Tailwind can normalize the underlying CSS without any need for changes to your code.</p>
<p>Can you build all of the classes yourself to use a naming scheme that you like better? Sure.</p>
<p>Should you…I suppose that’s up to you.</p> 
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								<p>I personally don’t care at all about “semantic” CSS.  When I’m writing vanilla CSS I do, but I’m certainly glad to have the relief from it that Tailwind brings.  I want to make it clear that I’ve been writing CSS since it came out and while I would not call myself a “ninja” at it, I know how to use it—and I love Tailwind!</p>
<p>For me, “don’t use a style attribute” is old dogma.  I still don’t think you should use a style attribute but not because it’s “mixing concerns” but because it’s not capable of unleashing the full power of CSS (hovers, etc).</p>
<p>As with many “rules” in computer programming, their meanings can vary.  For me, the “separation of concerns” I care about is the separation of <em>business</em> concerns, not the separation of languages/tech types.  With the popularization of component-based design, this becomes easy—we can have everything (design, template, data, logic) for a small business concern all in one place[0].  React (ugh) gave us JSX (yay!) and now utility frameworks like Tailwind (or other types of like React’s styled components) let us have our CSS in our components too.</p>
<p>The other thing I love about Tailwind comes down to Sandi Metz’s good old “duplication is better than the wrong abstraction” quote.  With Tailwind, it’s really easy to get going very quickly and build up a consistent design without putting a whole bunch of upfront thought into it.  Once patterns start to emerge, you can extract them to <code>@apply</code> as necessary (you’ll probably want to do this for colours and sizes and whatnot) though often you’ll probably get away with leaving everything as it and extracting it to a component.</p>
<p>In any event, I hear the reasons why people who don’t like Tailwind and I get it.  I certainly don’t use it on small projects that aren’t going to have a lot of CSS, but its design philosophy is sound and it’s certainly <em>not</em> just for people who don’t know how to write CSS.</p>
<p>[0] This may sound a bit like OO to you but that is another discussion.</p> 
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								<p>In many places Semantic UI is anything but semantic. Most glaring example is <a href="https://fomantic-ui.com/elements/list.html" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">lists</a>. This is their idea of a list by default:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="html"><code class="lang-html">&lt;div class="ui list"&gt;
  &lt;div class="item"&gt;Apples&lt;/div&gt;
  &lt;div class="item"&gt;Pears&lt;/div&gt;
  &lt;div class="item"&gt;Oranges&lt;/div&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;
</code></pre>
<p>wat.</p>
<p>As for Tailwind, Dan Abramov of React has a nice summary: <a href="https://twitter.com/dan_abramov/status/1452324924421550080" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://twitter.com/dan_abramov/status/1452324924421550080</a></p> 
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								<p>Currently I’m using a combination of Tailwind and standard CSS. Tailwind is well documented and has a lot of utility classes that I’d end up writing myself anyway. I use it whenever I need something simple like margins, padding, setting display to flex and so on. As soon as a combination of those utility classes actually has a specific meaning (or I end up with too many on a single element) I create my own class and just write regular CSS. Most of the Tailwind classes are easy to remember, although there are some that I always forget or trip me up.</p>
<p>I don’t like using <code>@apply</code> or other Tailwind specific syntax. I try to stay as close to the standards as possible unless the benefits are really worth it. With custom properties you can avoid duplication and make your own CSS and Tailwind play nice together.</p>
<p>You could do something like the following:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">:root {
  --spacing-1: 0.2em;
  --spacing-2: calc(var(--spacing-1) * 2);
}
</code></pre>
<p>You can actually use those custom properties in your Tailwind configuration. I do this for spacing, colors and so on. So if I have something that needs padding that’s exactly the same as <code>p-2</code> I could just do:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">.card {
  padding: var(--spacing-2);
  /* more styling here */
}
</code></pre>
<p>Now I don’t have to worry about keeping values in sync between my own CSS and Tailwind.</p>
<p>Tailwind mainly showed me the value that utility classes can have. As with everything it has benefits and drawbacks. By sticking to standard syntax as much as possible it saves me from having to think about utility classes right now but it still allows me to pretty easily take it out in the future if that would be necessary.</p> 
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								<p>Regarding the “Why am I only now learning about Milligram?” question, specifically, I was surprised to learn that Milligram is mentioned <a href="https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix/search?q=milligram+path%3Aguides" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">nowhere in the guides</a>, so I submitted a quick PR to address this:<br>
<a href="https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix/pull/4570" class="onebox" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix/pull/4570</a></p>
<p>Hopefully this helps things a bit in the future <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>** Replied to the wrong person by mistake and I thought I could quickly delete and re-submit but that appears to not be possible. Adding this disclaimer so I can get around the “Your body is too similar to what you already posted” message when I try to re-submit <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>I like your approach. I think the strength of tailwind is about providing a well thought out subset of CSS that is practical to use, but repeating oneself all the time in order to be able to copy paste html with their styles still feel horrible to me. If I need the same html and style I would rather create a component for that anyway..</p> 
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								<p>the core library does not have those commercial licenses</p>
<p>try daisyui as a starting point</p> 
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								<p>Well, I’m back to using Tailwind now.  It turns out that I love it.  My previous comments were due to not having gotten the hang of it.  It is like using inline styles, except in a more controlled and succinct way – and as soon as my HTML gets too hairy I just pull the styles out into my own tailwind components file that I’m building as I go along.  It feels to me that this is “real CSS” – i.e., what CSS should have been all along.</p> 
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								<p>Just wanted to mention <a href="https://flowbite.com/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Flowbite</a> here, which is basically an open version of TailwindUI. I find it helpful in jumpstarting my initial designs.<br>
As someone who has been catching up with all the changes in html and css that happened in the last 10-15 years since I’ve built a website I found myself in the analysis paralysis with the amount of information out there right now. This topic has been really helpful in understanding the tooling and workflows of the current day so thanks to everyone contributing. Tailwind is growing on me every day I’m using it.</p> 
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