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<p>TBF that’s very often a business decision. Most sensible programmers will immediately tell the business folk that web apps are an overkill and introduce dev overhead – as you mentioned, bootstraping web projects + writing CSS isn’t always a 1h affair, sadly, and is often an annoying busy work – but they will never care because when they ask what would it take to make a native app, to them it becomes a very simple math: “choose the lesser expense”, which is the web apps.</p>
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<p>Exactly! That’s why making GUI library as simple as <code>Phoenix</code> would be a big change on whole market. I just can’t say for others, so my main point was that many tiny pet projects would be much better after GUI enhancement.</p>
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<p>In <em>TheBrightFuture™</em> that never came.</p>
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<p>It came! I really can’t imagine me working with other stack than Elixir/Phoenix in long term. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiling_imp.png?v=15" title=":smiling_imp:" class="emoji" alt=":smiling_imp:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> I can complain on many things in that rotting world <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/apple.png?v=15" title=":apple:" class="emoji" alt=":apple:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">, but with <code>Elixir</code> I was able to make my dreams come true. That’s why regardless of everything I still have a hope … somewhere really deep … but I definitely have! <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>I don’t see a way out. Only if a bunch of tech people got super rich very early on but don’t want to retire and they open a research lab that works on such things and is being generously funded for decades, I think. As long as you have corporate or military interests in the equation, nothing will truly progress. Too many parties with vested interest to keep things as they are.</p>
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<p>Ok, time for you <code>José</code>!</p>
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<p>I am only half-joking. I am super salty at how quickly people learn to shrug off technology as a capricious deity.</p>
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<p>You too brother? <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smile.png?v=15" title=":smile:" class="emoji" alt=":smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>Humanity can do much better than that.</p>
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<p>Definitely! Unfortunately system have a major bugs not fixed for years and unfortunately it’s going in really bad direction because of some extremes. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/moneybag.png?v=15" title=":moneybag:" class="emoji" alt=":moneybag:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>That’s said my proposal is pretty big. In short term I would rather go for things like:</p>
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<p>For scripts and command-line apps, Elixir could really benefit from a simple &amp; portable <code>getch</code> implementation.</p>
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<p>It came! I really can’t imagine me working with other stack than Elixir/Phoenix in long term.</p>
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<p>That is certainly very true for myself as well, it just depends from what angle you are looking at it.</p>
<p>I find it hugely disappointing to still have to manually fling files. We should have generators that say “I want auth”, “I want users”, “I want multi-tenancy”, “I want background jobs”, “I want an API client, here’s the spec for it, generate 100% of the code with ability to handle HTTP 429 and with N retries”.</p>
<p>Etc. etc.</p>
<p>But no, most of what we do is: (1) read requirements, (2) sigh deeply because we know EXACTLY WHAT WE WILL DO IN THE NEXT THREE HOURS, and (3) shrug and get to it.</p>
<p>It can be much, much better.</p>
<p>For all the fancy AI talk I haven’t seen much improvements to dev workflows in the last several years apart from LSP and TreeSitter. They are wins, but marginal ones and I truly expected more.</p> 
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								<p>what would you use libxo for? I wrote <a href="https://git.sr.ht/~dch/ucl" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">~dch/ucl - Erlang/Elixir NIF bindings for https://github.com/vstakhov/libucl - sourcehut git</a> which may do what you want already. Bonus points if you can tell me a better way to bundle libucl for linux etc, and double bonus points if you have ideas to improve it!</p> 
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								<p>UCL is also nice. Once upon a time I had Rust bindings to UCL</p> 
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								<p>Honestly I understand where your frustration comes from, a lot of time simplicity is the key to success.</p>
<p>While I agree that creating the possibility for users to create easily UI is very powerful and is present only in some languages, I don’t think that native is doable by a single person. If we talk about complexity of such an integration, it is possibly years of work, a re-implementation of wxwidgets.</p>
<p>On the other hand, making custom UI components is much easier and you are guaranteed cross-platform integration out of the box, not mentioning having minimal bindings only for rendering. Maybe this could be settled in the middle by having a intermediate library for fetching native things like you mentioned earlier (like theme) and offering some kind of integration in the application.</p>
<p>I have pretty good idea of architecture and features required for a truly good and fast UI builder, however it is important to iron out these native integrations correctly, maybe I should open another thread for a discussion on that.</p> 
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								<ol>
<li>
<p>Buy PrinceXML</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Use Flying-Saucer Java library for HTML to PDF</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Buy Aspose.Words</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Supervise Chrome with holsee/chroxy or even put it in a lambda and autoscale by connection, each connection is served by 1 new lambda <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> then use the remote protocol to get PDF out</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Write your own layout engine</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>Many solid options</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/d4no0/48/33624_2.png" class="avatar"> D4no0:</div>
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<p>I don’t think that native is doable by a single person.</p>
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<p>It’s not about making something done, but it’s about starting it, with simplest demos showing others that’s in their range and that way build a community around it. <code>scenic</code> demos are more than enough already. Now there is need to be a fork or dependent library which aims desktop GUI. <code>Linux</code>, <code>Elixir</code> and many other awesome projects also weren’t started by thousands of developers working full-time.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/d4no0/48/33624_2.png" class="avatar"> D4no0:</div>
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<p>Maybe this could be settled in the middle by having a intermediate library for fetching native things like you mentioned earlier (like theme) and offering some kind of integration in the application.</p>
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<p>Just look at this:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">$ cat /usr/share/plasma/desktoptheme/oxygen/colors 
[Colors:Button]
BackgroundAlternate=218,221,215
BackgroundNormal=218,221,215
DecorationFocus=239,132,65
DecorationHover=119,183,255
ForegroundActive=255,0,0
ForegroundInactive=152,154,149
ForegroundLink=0,0,255
ForegroundNegative=107,0,0
ForegroundNeutral=0,90,95
ForegroundNormal=240,240,240
ForegroundPositive=0,95,0
ForegroundVisited=88,55,150
…
</code></pre>
<p>Parsing it is really simple (css files parsing from gtk could be done later by community). All we need to do is to put those values into <code>Elixir</code> structs and draw component using this data. We don’t have to share everything. Step by step, today button, tomorrow checkbox and when people would see it more and more useful and actively developed then they would help on their own as well.</p>
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<p>I have pretty good idea of architecture and features required for a truly good and fast UI builder, however it is important to iron out these native integrations correctly, maybe I should open another thread for a discussion on that.</p>
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<p>As said integrations are another topic. As long as the “core” library supports it we can delay them especially that some things like notifications we can draw on our own pretty simple.</p> 
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								<p>Sounds good! I guess the next step is to investigate wether <code>scenic</code> is a good core for this kind of project, while it’s abstractions are good enough, I have the problem with <code>GLFW</code> that is used for rendering and user input, even to this day I was unable to start a scenic application on windows, not mentioning that <code>GLFW</code> doesn’t integrate well with touchscreen devices.</p> 
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								<p>It would be amazing to have option to change it - like in some games there are choices for <code>sdl</code>, <code>opengl</code> or other render. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/heart.png?v=15" title=":heart:" class="emoji" alt=":heart:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> Most probably we would need to fork <code>scenic</code> for this and make just this one feature configurable.</p> 
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								<p>You can see a discussion we had on this topic <a href="https://github.com/ScenicFramework/scenic/issues/193" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">here</a>. From what I see, the framework is already using the concepts of backends, for example: <a href="https://github.com/ScenicFramework/scenic_driver_glfw" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">GLFW driver</a>.</p>
<p>What worries me more is the presence of NIFs, the problem with them is increased difficulty for cross-compilation, while <code>scenic</code> supports builds for generic architectures(x86-64) and arm64(rpi), it will become a problem with devices like android and new macs running on a different architecture. The most optimal solution seems to be what Nx is using currently: precompiled binaries.</p>
<p>The other problem I see with scenic, is that it was oriented as a standalone framework, much like phoenix, so most probably we won’t be able to use it as-is and we will have to either fork it or start from scratch.</p> 
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