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<p>Do libraries like HTTPoison not validate their options?</p>
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<p>Sadly I can’t cite exact examples right now – in the last few years I’ve worked with a mix of Elixir, Golang and Rust and some Elixir details are starting to slip away from my memory – but I have witnessed all three options:</p>
<ol>
<li>Library validates the config you give it and spits out a generic oh-so-helpul “invalid config” atom (or raises), often preventing your app from booting in the first place. There were some that were saying what exactly is wrong but they were a vanishing minority.</li>
<li>Library does not check the shape of the config and just blows up at runtime.</li>
<li>Library checks the shape of the config and silently reverts to a default when it doesn’t like your input.</li>
</ol>
<p>The last one is my favorite. One of the teams I was in lost 3 hours once to track down such a problem (unlucky for them I was having two sick days then). They just assumed that the library would be more vocal and would not silently do the wrong thing. And as we know, assumptions lead to gray hairs.</p>
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<p><a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/what-are-your-concerns-about-a-future-type-system-for-elixir/57525/72" rel="nofollow">This comment</a> mentions casting which would be interesting. It would be cool to have something like changesets in the standard lib that works across data types. I don’t know if that’s a big ask or a terrible idea or anything, just saying it would be cool <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>Yeah that comment’s point 1 is my main goal and foreseen value-add from any more static typing than right now: if we can make bad state hard (or even impossible) to compile, I personally guarantee many teams will save time – witnessed a good amount of time being wasted on such problems.</p>
<p>Back to your OP, in my experience strong static typing does not necessarily translate to less tests <em>per se</em>, but when you have a dynamic language it’s also a good practice to assert on certain potential problems stemming from the dynamism (and IMO my above example is an okay demonstration of one such case).</p>
<p>So a strong static typing would eliminate the need for certain double-checks, let’s say. I still view that as a win. How big – that really depends on team dynamics, culture and practices – but a win nonetheless.</p>
<hr>
<p>Also what <a class="mention" href="/u/stefanchrobot" rel="nofollow">@stefanchrobot</a> said, with three hands raised. Many people cannot assess and positively evaluate something that removes certain problems and annoyance <em>from appearing in the first place</em>. Case in point: you are not thanking your trees for capturing CO2, are you? Well, maybe every now and then you should. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/wink.png?v=15" title=":wink:" class="emoji" alt=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Strong static typing helps you avoid a class of problems early.</p> 
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<p>Given that most unit tests are best when they are pure functions in most cases you are not checking the type as much as you are checking the shape.</p>
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<p>100% correct! That’s why many people make the very valid and strong argument that being able to deconstruct a function’s input arguments via pattern matching removes most of the benefits of strong static typing. I don’t disagree with that argument – I like it and I support it – but I still think a bit more static typing will help. It will just help other things, not that one thing in particular.</p> 
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<p>I work on the inside (unit tests) when I know what I want my code to look like and have already strong opinions.</p>
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<p>This is why I just don’t bother with unit tests anymore (though I do like doctests).  When I know what my small functions look like, the only reason I would write tests for them in the first place is to help guide their design.  If their design is obvious, I don’t get any sort of nagging feeling of it not having a unit tests as I know my integration tests are exercising them.  I fully sympathize with people that still want to write these tests, though.  I do keep some around for more complex functions.</p>
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<p>One last thing to add, what would testing polymorphism look like in terms of checking interfaces?</p>
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<p>Not sure if you are talking about in general or in terms of types or if I even fully understand your ask, but I make a configurable macro in these cases that writes a test for me.  Not sure if you know Rails but they are akin to RSpec’s “shared examples”.  This way I don’t need to create a dummy implementation just for testing and I can throw a one-liner in each implementation’s tests that basically just catch regressions.  Again, maybe that’s not what you meant.</p>
<p>I certainly agree that testing in Elixir is a huge step up.  Well, I only really know testing in Ruby and JS otherwise but LiveView tests changed everything.  They are one step away from being e2es that are simple to write and super fast to run.  Then you just need to sprinkle in a few Wallaby tests if you really want to be thorough.</p> 
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<p>The last one is my favorite. One of the teams I was in lost 3 hours once to track down such a problem (unlucky for them I was having two sick days then). They just assumed that the library would be more vocal and would not silently do the wrong thing. And as we know, assumptions lead to gray hairs.</p>
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<p>Lol, ya, I remember those from Ruby libraries.  I just haven’t come across it much in Elixir due only working on a production system with actual users for about 8 months (and I didn’t really handle any library config).</p>
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<p>So a strong static typing would eliminate the need for certain double-checks, let’s say. I still view that as a win. How big – that really depends on team dynamics, culture and practices – but a win nonetheless.</p>
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<p>I definitely see this, though if a library is validating config I see it as less of a problem.  The tests in the library themselves would only really need to test the happy path too, I feel.  I could be wrong.  Other than messing around with OCaml and Haskell I don’t really have experience with types (which I’ve probably told you several times before, lol).  “Team dynamic, culture, and practices” obviously play a huge part in but I don’t want to get too into discussing the general value of types again!</p> 
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<p>the only reason I would write tests for them in the first place is to help guide their design. If their design is obvious, I don’t get any sort of nagging feeling of it not having a unit tests</p>
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<p>I write tests for the possibility of reducing the risk of change in the future.  I found that forcing myself to use tests to drive design sometimes was a huge hindrance to my creative thought.<br>
I often writes tests last now, I know I skip a lot of the “is the test even valid” by skipping the red phase.<br>
Instead I often write the code I wish I had (some times write tests in between). Flush out the logic to support, then harden it with tests. If I refactor its more a bigger rewrite. That’s not to say this is a good workflow but it works for me.</p> 
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<p>I write tests for the possibility of reducing the risk of change in the future.</p>
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<p>Yep. That’s 98% of my reasoning to write unit tests.</p> 
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								<p>The key to not having tests hinder design is to do “spikes”, ie, prototypes you throw away.  The most important design factor TDD helps me with is, as you said, boundaries at the integration layers.  In any event, I don’t judge the way people do things too much—unless you are on my team <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">  But there I just want people to be on the same page and it’s chaos when a single team is using different methodologies.</p>
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<p>I write tests for the possibility of reducing the risk of change in the future.</p>
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<p><s>Of course this is an interesting take that I now see <a class="mention" href="/u/dimitarvp" rel="nofollow">@dimitarvp</a> shares.  What is the context of this?  Like you don’t want people to go on massive pet refactors?  You don’t want features too change too often?  It’s not a sentiment I’ve thought about before.</s> Oooooops, I totally misread that <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/upside_down_face.png?v=15" title=":upside_down_face:" class="emoji" alt=":upside_down_face:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>I have got jobs before that I only got because there was acceptance tests that had been used to rewrite the whole app in liveview while having its api migrated over from a ruby stack more than once now.</p>
<p>That’s also in part why my workflow is normally the way it is, that in there tends to already be tests</p> 
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								<p>So you mean just having them for regression?</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
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<p>regression</p>
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<p>Todays word of the day is.</p>
<p>There’s your value for long lived apps.</p> 
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