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<p>I have never said that I “live in refactoring hell”. Why do you feel the need to invent stories to make a point?</p>
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<p>I am referring to your post arguing for the virtues of declaring static types on everything to benefit refactoring:</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"><a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/oo-or-fp-easier-for-beginners/57696/14" rel="nofollow">OO or FP easier for beginners</a></div>
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<p>You and <a class="mention" href="/u/sodapopcan" rel="nofollow">@sodapopcan</a> (to whom I already gave an example about what they bring to the table <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> but he still seems to wonder what are they good for) <strong>seem to underestimate the ability to refactor via a checklist that the compiler is literally handing you</strong>, as opposed to crudely searching for certain texts in the codebase and assuming that’s enough – and to be fair to all sides it usually is, which makes the cases where it is not enough all the more dangerous and confusing (some codebases pass modules around and use them dynamically, others use protocols, yet others use <code>apply</code>, and let’s not even mention those that import or alias stuff so it’s not trivial to find even for LSP sometimes etc.).</p>
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<p>And this reaction when I said refactoring really isn’t an issue and very manageable due to sound structuring:</p>
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<p>Finally, that’s a bit of a weird thing to say, refactoring is 100% inevitable. Hope you are not making the argument that we have to dream up 100% of the app before we hear the 50+ “I changed my mind” complaints from customers.</p>
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<p>Hence your world vs mine.</p>
<p>I don’t live my life in my editor refactoring type declarations and I don’t want to.</p>
<p>I think of functional programming as being <em>algorithms</em> (mostly reducers over a state) and that they really <strong>don’t care</strong> what the type is, as long as there is a pattern match on the function or operator (which is still a function pattern match). It’s very much about <em>value</em> semantics and constraints, not static types.</p>
<p>The last thing I want to happen in our ecosystem is getting caught up on manually managing static type hierarchies, type unification, and all the “fun” that brings. Sometimes I may have to pass a Dog, sometimes a Poodle, and sometimes a Gorilla. Do I need to list each of these types everywhere or do I create a “generic” Animal type? Is an Amoeba an Animal too? What about Plants?</p>
<p>I say N-O to where this ultimately leads, and yes <strong>I am resisting static type declarations</strong> in favor of type inferencing in the hope others can see value in such an approach too rather than thinking classic static types is the only way.</p>
<p>I am saying there is another way through <em>inferencing</em> which can avoid many of the problems of declaring static types.</p>
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<p>You seem to be saying “I don’t want languages without type inference” which is OK. Who is fighting you on this and why do you feel the need to emphasize it as much? <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/thinking.png?v=15" title=":thinking:" class="emoji" alt=":thinking:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>That is the point, I don’t want manual static typing which is what <em>you</em> seem to be arguing for, and which leads to the maintenance problems I have articulated.</p>
<p><strong>It is quite ok</strong>.</p>
<p>I accept that we both have different viewpoints and a significant difference of opinion even though we both desire better compile time checking. That much we can agree on I think.</p> 
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								<p>Yes, and there are languages doing it. Best of both worlds, right?</p> 
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								<p>I never wrote in a language that has powerful type inference, however people seem to praise highly languages like Elm. I have a feeling that this magic should have some drawbacks in practice, especially when we add things like polymorphic functions into the equation.</p> 
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								<p>Rust and OCaml. As far as I am aware – with Rust first-hand experience of 3 years and something – both are pretty powerful.</p>
<p>Though in OCaml’s case I’d recommend much more strongly to not overdo the <em>not</em> typing out the types thing because with parametric polymorphism it can get confusing and cryptic really fast.</p> 
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								<p>I don’t think rust can be classified in one of those languages with powerful type inference, it is better than in languages like kotlin, c#, java, c++, however it is still very verbose.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>Though in OCaml’s case I’d recommend much more strongly to not overdo the <em>not</em> typing out the types thing because with parametric polymorphism it can get confusing and cryptic really fast.</p>
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<p>I think this is one of the pitfalls of having powerful inference, sometimes you can get some errors that you wouldn’t possibly understand, this is why tooling for guiding you around this is also important.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t mind having this full inference in elixir, however the way it is done in rust, I would rather have that as an optional feature, basically I want to write code in elixir like I did before and have this magical type inference at compile-time.</p> 
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<p>Yes, and there are languages doing it. Best of both worlds, right?</p>
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<p>The only fundamental driver for manual type declarations is where the compiler does not actually have the information to infer the type (or value) constraint. In such cases it is not optional and is actually <strong>required</strong> for soundness.</p>
<p>This is however quite a distinct use case from exuberant festooning of the code base with static type adornments.</p> 
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								<p>So much for my not wanting this to turn into a static vs dynamic typing thread <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">  I knew it was likely inevitable and I’m still learning some stuff!  Also, thanks to <a class="mention" href="/u/adw632" rel="nofollow">@adw632</a> and <a class="mention" href="/u/dimitarvp" rel="nofollow">@dimitarvp</a> for pointing out <a href="https://hex.pm/packages/nimble_options" rel="nofollow">NimbleOptions</a> earlier, I was unaware of it.</p> 
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<p>The only fundamental driver for manual type declarations is where the compiler does not actually have the information to infer the type (or value) constraint. In such cases it is not optional and is actually <strong>required</strong> for soundness.</p>
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<p>Yes, and that pathological case is quite rare in my commercial Rust experience.</p> 
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								<p>The Elixir type work seems to be heading in the right direction, the initial implementation will not support any type annotations and infer what it can using just function guards. It will be a long road.</p>
<p>Whilst they do introduce a type annotation in the paper it is used for expressing set theoretic type concepts not a language syntax for implementation.</p>
<p>Paper here <a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/2306.06391" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://arxiv.org/pdf/2306.06391</a></p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/types-n-testing/57577/60">Post #59</a>
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                  dimitarvp
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								<p>Going step by step and making sure the community is OK with what is being hatched is the one and only right approach here, and I applaud the core team for working in that manner.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/types-n-testing/57577/61">Post #60</a>
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