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<p>Though that makes me wonder… how many free special symbols Elixir still has at its disposal for future syntax additions?</p>
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<p>Unused ones are <code>`</code> and <code>$</code>. However, some are used under very specific situations, such as <code>%</code>, <code>~</code>, and <code>\</code> which may still be available for other use cases. We will also free <code>'</code> once Elixir v2.0 arrives (as single-quotes for charlists are deprecated). However, I don’t think this feature is important enough to justify “spending” <code>$</code> on it (if the sigil such as <code>$</code> is a requirement, I’d consider it a deal breaker for now <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> ).</p>
<p>EDIT: there is also the option of using something like <code>@@foo</code> for this.</p> 
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<p>The reduce form of comprehensions allows carrying the necessary state, is it just a matter of education on the idioms?</p>
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<p>The proposal talks about this and the previous discussion as well. For this particular use case, there is too much verbosity around immutability and lack of reassignment, that the code using <code>reduce</code> (or <code>map_reduce</code>) gets overloaded with the mechanics of how you pass the data around, which makes it much harder to figure out the actual “business work” that you need to do.</p>
<p>Give an Elixir developer both Elixir and Python code, and ask them to summarize what the algorithm is doing, I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority will be able to figure out the Python one quicker than the <code>reduce</code> one.</p> 
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								<p>Despite the fact that comprehensions <em>can</em> be used for this problem, the <code>Enum.map_reduce</code> form is still easy to read for those familiar with Elixir (IMO).</p>
<p>It does beg the question if <code>Enum.map_reduce</code> is sufficient ,and reads nicely (as per Jose’s original post), do we really need to change anything?</p>
<p>Do we need a better example problem that is a lot more clumsy to solve without comprehensions and requires “local accumulators” / “function scope rebinding” ?</p>
<p>I feel that the problem with comprehensions is that they have an <em>almost</em> imperative style, which is a more familiar way to those coming from non functional languages, but not to those who have made the mental switch to a functional approach.</p>
<p>The illusion of that imperative style also starts to break down because when using an immutable functional language we can’t do things the same way, and <em>must</em> shift our thinking.  I hazard to guess this is why the uptake on comprehensions is low, once you shift your thinking to the functional way it just <em>feels</em> strange to use an imperative looking style, even though <code>for</code> is still built on recursion.</p>
<p>As for the function scope mutability I would never want to use it, and would ensure credo checks to weed out any use of it because it is unnecessary and wreaks of an imperative style.</p>
<p>I would entertain a more constrained form, such as deliberate binding of comprehension state variables from/to the outer scope, and compiler checks to raise an error on any rebinding/assignment to a variable that shadows a variable/binding in the outer scope and which has not been specifically bound to the comprehension state.</p>
<p>I did previously suggest a syntax such as pinning but that would be confusing, a better syntax might be <code> inner &lt;-&gt; outer</code>  to indicate the binding goes both into and out of the comprehension.</p> 
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<p>It does beg the question if <code>Enum.map_reduce</code> is sufficient ,and reads nicely (as per Jose’s original post), do we really need to change anything?</p>
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<p>To me it is sufficient but apparently other people disagree. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/person_shrugging.png?v=15" title=":person_shrugging:" class="emoji" alt=":person_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> I am not trying to change their mind.</p>
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<p>Do we need a better example problem that is a lot more clumsy to solve without comprehensions and requires “local accumulators” / “function scope rebinding” ?</p>
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<p>To me: yes, we need a better and more comprehensive problem statement. But again, seems like people are already convinced the problem is bad enough to merit such an addition.</p>
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<p>I would entertain a more constrained form, such as deliberate binding of comprehension state variables from/to the outer scope</p>
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<p>I’d constrain this even more, as mentioned above I’d have something like <code>for item &lt;- items, accumulators: [a: outside_var_a, b: outside_var_b]...</code> which would just alias <code>outside_var_a</code> to <code>a</code> and <code>outside_var_b</code> to <code>b</code> only inside the <code>for</code> block, and be done with it.</p>
<p>But admittedly I am not on board with why is this change even necessary so I might be shooting entirely the wrong target.</p> 
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<p>Give an Elixir developer both Elixir and Python code, and ask them to summarize what the algorithm is doing, I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority will be able to figure out the Python one quicker than the <code>reduce</code> one.</p>
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<p>I think you are correct on this, the Elixir code does take more cognition to decode what its doing.</p>
<p>Which suggests we need a better way to describe the state that gets “carried” within comprehensions and the state that gets returned to the outer scope.</p>
<p>It doesn’t follow that we need pervasive function scope level rebinding however (<code>mut</code>).</p> 
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<p>I’d constrain this even more, as mentioned above I’d have something like <code>for item &lt;- items, accumulators: [a: outside_var_a, b: outside_var_b]...</code> which would just alias <code>outside_var_a</code> to <code>a</code> and <code>outside_var_b</code> to <code>b</code> only inside the <code>for</code> block, and be done with it.</p>
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<p>Yes basically what I was suggesting with the <code>inner &lt;-&gt; outer</code> syntax given that we already have state “flowing” into the comprehension with <code>&lt;-</code> it didn’t seem a stretch to have a similar concept for “bidirectional” state bindings using <code>&lt;-&gt;</code>.</p> 
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<p>Which suggests we need a better way to describe the state that gets “carried” within comprehensions and the state that gets returned to the outer scope.</p>
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<p>I am not sure “better” is the right word here. We already have a mechanism to do so, because functional programming wants the state to be explicit, the issue is that it is too verbose. We need a more concise mechanism but the big question is which parts to hide.</p>
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<p>It doesn’t follow that we need pervasive function scope level rebinding however (<code>mut</code>).</p>
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<p>Definitely, which is why it is one of several proposals on this topic. Your suggestions are similar in semantics to the previous one, except with a different syntax, so I really recommend reading the past thread.</p>
<p>I am not saying we should accept this because the previous one was rejected. After all, we can still leave the solution space open, but we should avoid rehashing non-accepted solutions.</p>
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<p>To me: yes, we need a better and more comprehensive problem statement. But again, seems like people are already convinced the problem is bad enough to merit such an addition.</p>
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<p>I kinda disagree. This was already extensively discussed over two previous proposals. The problem has been described, perhaps you just don’t consider it enough to warrant any of the requested language changes. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/josevalim/48/1787_2.png" class="avatar"> josevalim:</div>
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<p>The problem has been described, perhaps you just don’t consider it enough to warrant any of the requested language changes. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>Very possible, it’s been a while and I don’t remember well anymore and you are not mandated to repeat yourself – hence, I am not contesting the need for the extra syntax.</p> 
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								<p>Nah, it is totally fine to contest it. Even if just a gut feeling check because even if we accept it now, we will still have to explain the same rationale for the next several years!</p> 
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								<p>Someone mentioned “local scoped variables” and it actually sounds good… The <code>$</code> or <code>@@</code> syntax to differentiate those variables while keeping the usage of <code>=</code> sounds interesting as well (looks better without the <code>let</code> though).</p> 
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