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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/josevalim/48/1787_2.png" class="avatar"> josevalim:</div>
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<p>To me, personally, the biggest question is if its addition to the language justifies the syntax and semantic impact to the language (which I still don’t know/don’t have an answer for).</p>
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<p>That’s the most pertinent question here and my answer is “no”. Making certain <code>for</code> scenarios more, ahem, comprehensible, to me is not worth it.</p>
<p>Your point that this does not introduce actual mutability and it still compiles to pure &amp; immutable code is well-received and understood but I feel that many people will not see it that way and will start demanding more and more constructs they are familiar with.</p>
<p>Implementing this proposal carries a huge negative potential of “opening the flood-gates” kind.</p>
<p>And I can assure you I’ll be one of the first people to introduce a <code>credo</code> or <code>ast-grep</code> rule against using the new syntax in the code bases I’ll be responsible for.</p>
<p>IMO a good compromise would be to figure out how to extend <code>for</code> itself to allow for this and never allow this syntax to escape out of those borders.</p>
<p>Or, to put it another way: I don’t want only the runtime to enjoy pure and immutable code, I want I as the programmer to enjoy it too. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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<p>And I can assure you I’ll be one of the first people to introduce a <code>credo</code> or <code>ast-grep</code> rule against using the new syntax in the code bases I’ll be responsible for.</p>
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<p>Indeed, write me down in that list.</p>
<p>This is very baffling, because I would understand introduction of real mutable values, just like haskell has and are used in a lower level development to get performance out of algorithms that require it, we accomplish this in elixir with NIFs at the end of the day.</p> 
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								<p>I am pretty sure that a proposal to introduce (more) mutable values would be considered even more baffling by most of the community. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> Which is likely an indicator of how divisive the topic is!</p> 
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								<p>Apologies for second long comment, wanted to address what seems like the main contention points.</p>
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<p>Look, I love the <code>Enum</code> module. It provides a great shared vocabulary. But we need to acknowledge it is a sizeable step in our learning curve.</p>
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<p>And that is a problem, because…? Every language and ecosystem has a learning curve and Elixir’s is still pretty mild. Many people out there have said so.</p>
<p>Who’s the target audience of this proposal?</p>
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<p>But I was honestly hoping more empathy towards the problem statement.</p>
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<p>The OP problem statement still seems like a toy problem so it’s hard for me to find empathy towards it.</p>
<p>I am trying hard to sympathize but the OP problem statement seems very niche, and the initial proposed solution looks like a confusing hill to die on.</p>
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<p>Perhaps the option is to either introduce <code>accum session_counter = 0</code> (similar to the previous one by using another keyword) or introduce a new block construct <code>accumulate session_counter &lt;- 0, lesson_counter &lt;- 0 do</code>.</p>
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<p><strong>YES, PLEASE!</strong> <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/pray.png?v=15" title=":pray:" class="emoji" alt=":pray:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Introduce whatever syntax monstrosity you like there! I personally will accept it immediately only after a small discussion on the syntax wording e.g. “accum” vs. “scoped_mutable” vs. “state” vs. whatever else gets the message across best.</p>
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<p>Yes, I thought about this as well, but I struggle on both:</p>
<ol>
<li>how to make it efficient</li>
<li>how to make it work in this case</li>
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<p>You don’t have to do everything alone. We can, as a community, converge on a proposal that’s super difficult to implement and then make some sort of a contest who will implement it best. Why not?</p> 
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<p>And that is a problem, because…? Every language and ecosystem has a learning curve and Elixir’s is still pretty mild. Many people out there have said so.</p>
<p>Who’s the target audience of this proposal?</p>
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<p>The whole reply you quoted that sentence from is meant to answer it. You may not agree with it but I am not going to rehash the same arguments. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>I will just plead for us to not get comfortable. All ecosystems have a learning curve. Ours may be mild. But it is not excuse for us to stop discussing ways to still improve it.</p>
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<p>The OP problem statement still seems like a toy problem so it’s hard for me to find empathy towards it.</p>
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<p>It came from an actual application. Seriously, please, let’s not get complacent and let’s not dismiss discussions by using labels such as “toy problems”. This is not ok.</p>
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<p>You don’t have to do everything alone. We can, as a community, converge on a proposal that’s super difficult to implement and then make some sort of a contest who will implement it best. Why not?</p>
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<p>Sure, the problem has been open for years, anyone can submit proposals! I welcome them. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiley.png?v=15" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> As a matter of fact, I am not even comfortable with the current proposal but I keep submitting them to keep the ideas flowing. Which is why it gets very tiring when many comments are attempting to dismiss the problem in the first place.</p> 
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								<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">accum session_counter &lt;- 0, lesson_counter &lt;- 0 do
  ...
end
</code></pre>
<p>I also had the same thought, either a special block or a special <strong>do</strong> alternative that supports reducing.</p>
<p>Perhaps <strong>reduce</strong> instead of <strong>accum</strong>?</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">reduce session_counter &lt;- 0, lesson_counter &lt;- 0 do
  ...
end
</code></pre>
<p>Notwithstanding the try catch problems, I like the functional concept of <em>reducing</em> over some arbitrary block of code which may use whatever is in scope.</p>
<p><strong>Some further considerations</strong></p>
<p>Is this an expression? Would it return a tuple of the values or would it just bind to what is provided?</p>
<p>Could we pipe into it for composition?</p> 
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<p>This change is relatively small in the grand scheme of things and will MOSTLY make things like Advent of Code and other learning problems easier to accomplish, not harder.</p>
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<p>No working programmer will put any weight on new language syntax introduced just to make a yearly coding competition more convenient for themselves.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/josevalim/48/1787_2.png" class="avatar"> josevalim:</div>
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<p>It came from an actual application. Seriously, please, let’s not get complacent and let’s not dismiss discussions by using labels such as “toy problems”. This is not ok.</p>
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<p>We have well-working constructs to solve that problem but you have clearly shown that you don’t want the legitimacy of the problem called into question, so OK.</p>
<p>For the moment: I am much more in favor of enriching <code>for</code>’s keyword list options or, more tentatively, the <code>accumulators</code> block.</p>
<p>Curious how will this proposal evolve.</p> 
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								<p>The proposed new block construct is a nice idea. I like the special <code>do</code>:</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/9d8465/48.png" class="avatar"> adw632:</div>
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<p>special <strong>do</strong> alternative that supports reducing.<br>
Perhaps <strong>reduce</strong> instead of <strong>accum</strong>?</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">reduce session_counter &lt;- 0, lesson_counter &lt;- 0 do
  ...
end
</code></pre>
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<p>However I find the following idea really interesting:</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/christhekeele/48/1039_2.png" class="avatar"> christhekeele:</div>
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<p>We could add to the family of special keywords <code>do</code>/<code>end</code> supports like <code>else</code>/<code>catch</code>/<code>rescue</code>/<code>finally</code>, say, <code>acc</code>.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/christhekeele/48/1039_2.png" class="avatar"> christhekeele:</div>
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<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">i = 0

list = for element &lt;- [1, 2, 3] do
    element * i
  rebind
    i &lt;- i + 1
  end

list #=&gt; [0, 2, 6]
i #=&gt; 3 (or 2?)
</code></pre>
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<p>Now, if only we could somehow put <code>i = 0</code> inside of the comprehension? In my humble opinion this has the potential to be the most elegant solution yet.</p>
<p>I know <a class="mention" href="/u/josevalim" rel="nofollow">@josevalim</a> has already said that comprehension syntax is crowded as it is and modifying it further would complicate it too much. But still, perhaps someone can come up with a way to make it work?</p> 
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								<p>The idea of a “special assignment operator” is already a rejected alternative in the proposal.</p>
<p>Similarly the idea for additional keywords for special assignment would similarly not pass for the same reasons.</p> 
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