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								<p>I can see how something like this would make Elixir more approachable to new devs. I know abusing this can produce some really hard-to-debug code, but so do macros (I know I did some hideous stuff with macros), and they are one of the most powerful features of the language.</p>
<p>We can always guide people to write more declarative, expression-first code through documentation and code reviews, something we won’t have the chance to do if new devs can’t get past learning how a <code>reduce</code> works (especially those without a functional background).</p>
<p>So I’m all for it, as it will be useful in some corner cases, and help devs transition from an imperative to a more functional/declarative style, which should be very useful with the advance of ML/data science tooling in Elixir and more folks without a strong CS background might have a chance of joining the boat.</p>
<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="LostKobrakai" data-post="11" data-topic="60130">
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/lostkobrakai/48/3072_2.png" class="avatar"> LostKobrakai:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Elixir in its early days had this behaviour with normal variables and it was eventually removed to align with the idea of “everything is an expression” and using the return of the <code>if/else</code>. Having the return value of <code>if/else</code> be its result is imo an (/one of many) example of what makes elixir code easier to understand and follow than other languages, which do not enforce that explicitness.</p>
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</aside>
<p>I’m not too concerned about this causing the same problems having assignments inside <code>if/else</code> caused, as it is a very specific syntax. You don’t need to worry about a loop changing random variables under your nose, values mutating within function calls, or anything like that.</p>
<p>Even in a fairly large function body (which should be avoided in the first place), you just need to watch for a <code>@@</code> and how it evolves, which is much better than tracking <em>all</em> the variables as any of them might be reassigned at any moment.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><code>@@sum = 0</code></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I’m still not sold on the <code>@@</code> though haha</p>
<p>I can see how it would help bring the dev’s attention to these vars though, so I guess I could learn to love it.</p>
<p>Would be interesting to see what some alternatives look like if this is approved though. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smile.png?v=15" title=":smile:" class="emoji" alt=":smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/aetherus/48/17203_2.png" class="avatar"> Aetherus:</div>
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<p>What I’m concerning about is that whenever there’s a hole in a system, there will always be someone to leverage that, and there always will be others following that first guy. I fear if there’s a hole in the immutable system, and it’s very easy to leverage, the situation will get out of control.</p>
<p>By the way, I’m the guy who leverages the process dictionary to do dynamic programming <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/rofl.png?v=15" title=":rofl:" class="emoji" alt=":rofl:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> I don’t know if I’m the first.</p>
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<p>Right! There are already holes for people who want to emulate mutable state, such as pdict and agents. The proposal above is actually the <em>safest</em> mechanism of the ones mentioned, because it is ultimately pure and immutable, compared to the other options, and it emits compiler errors when it “escapes”.</p>
<p>So I don’t think being a “hole” is a concern because it isn’t a hole really. To me, personally, the biggest question is if its addition to the language justifies the syntax and semantic impact to the language (which I still don’t know/don’t have an answer for).</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/josevalim/48/1787_2.png" class="avatar"> josevalim:</div>
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<p>No, they are local to the scope they are defined, as the name suggests.</p>
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<p>So they can be used in function heads and scoped to the function without a separate binding in the function body?</p>
<p>Would this be valid?</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">def some_func(%{foo: @@bar}) when @@bar &lt; 5
</code></pre>
<p>Or does it need to be this?</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">def some_func(%{foo: bar}) when bar &lt; 5 do
  # ceremony
  @@bar = bar
</code></pre>
<p>I ask because using a special assignment operator was rejected in the problem description because of the various ways a value can be bound, and if binding to @<span class="mention">@var</span> cannot be done in the function head then this would be inconsistent, and arguably should be rejected on the same grounds.</p> 
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								<p>We also have Agents, and we also have GenServers, which explicitly were designed to hold and manage mutable states. Say you had one of these, you could equivalently write these code:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">my_acc = SomeStateWrapper.start_link()

list =
  for element &lt;- [1, 2, 3] do
    sum_so_far = SomeStateWrapper.get_value(my_acc)
    SomeStateWrapper.save_value(my_acc, element + sum_so_far)
    element * 2
  end

list #=&gt; [2, 4, 6]
SomeStateWrapper.get_value(my_acc) #=&gt; 6
</code></pre>
<p>As I understand, this may be unacceptable from a performance POV. So maybe we need something custom, in that it’s a state container bound to the current scope, that gets cleaned up when the current scope is destroyed, but on the surface it can operate as a function call. So the code would look like you’re using an Agent, for example, or a react Hook similar to useState() and we don’t need then syntax changes at all.</p>
<p>We’d basically hide the syntax changes away from the end programmer, making him or her use functions instead of special syntax.</p> 
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								<p>Or it could be more in the React/Hooks way:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">{get_value, set_value} = SomeStateWrapper.new(0)

list =
  for element &lt;- [1, 2, 3] do
    sum_so_far = get_value.()
    set_value.(my_acc, element + sum_so_far)
    element * 2
  end

list #=&gt; [2, 4, 6]
get_value.(my_acc) #=&gt; 6
</code></pre> 
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								<p>This sounds more dangerous to me <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>The agent (or worse, the functions) could leak by being returned/passed around/stored, and now you have true mutable state going around your app. The proposal makes it impossible for the (not really) mutable state to leave the scope where it is defined.</p> 
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<p>Or it could be more in the React/Hooks way</p>
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<p>As far as I understand, the original proposal was born because we do iterate through the collection, we do carry (generally speaking) an accumulator with us, and introducing some unrelated external storage seems ugly. The expression should not talk to the outmost world to carry its state, and we are after both clean and succinct syntax <em>and</em> autonomy.</p> 
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								<p>Oh yes, I wrote it wrong. Should be something like:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">
list =
  for element &lt;- [1, 2, 3] do
    {get_value, set_value} = SomeStateWrapper.new(0)

    sum_so_far = get_value.()
    set_value.(my_acc, element + sum_so_far)
    element * 2
  end

list #=&gt; [2, 4, 6]
</code></pre>
<p>But not sure how to pass the value outside of the comprehension scope then</p> 
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									<span>Creator of Elixir</span>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/hubertlepicki/48/6822_2.png" class="avatar"> hubertlepicki:</div>
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<p>We’d basically hide the syntax changes away from the end programmer, making him or her use functions instead of special syntax.</p>
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<p>This is precisely what this proposal is, except it is guaranteed to be pure and immutable by the compiler.</p>
<p>If you want to rely on side-effects such as agents/genserver, you can guarantee the state container is bound to the current scope by using try/rescue/after. It is already an existing language feature.</p> 
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								<p>The difference being that we currently do it with function calls, and not dedicated operators (@@)</p> 
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