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                  mudasobwa
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<p>What sort of benefit does such exercise grant you?</p>
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<p>Idris brings proofs. It assures me I chose the correct approach and implemented it properly. Well, the evident example from the latest week: I was after the cumbersome throttling with retries and I <em>have proved</em> the functions are <em>total</em> and the code never increases the number of retries beyond the limit. Idris would not <em>compile</em> the code if the dependent (on number of retries in this particular case) type goes upper limit (or below zero.)</p>
<p>Another example would be a finite automata implementation, where Idris <em>validates</em> during a compile time, that e. g. in the state “paid” say the amount of money had decreased and the receipt had been issued.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/in-an-age-of-ai-is-static-typing-even-necessary/71280/32">Post #31</a>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/3bc359/48.png" class="avatar"> garrison:</div>
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<p>The recent Ash AI efforts and what Zach has written about them indicates, to me, that documentation is <em>very important</em> for the models to perform today.</p>
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<p>I am not so sure. What Zach has written is a normal scepticism about the hipe, but I have not read it as “more docs would give LLM more context.”</p>
<p>Speaking from my own experience, LLMs today are <em>extremely, unbelievably great</em> at <em>writing documentation</em>. I mean, once I have a clean code, LLM would have a documentation produced that would be 100 times better than what I can do myself.</p>
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<p>And personally, when writing Elixir the typespecs are the first thing I read on hexdocs when I’m looking up a function. So clearly they are a very useful form of documentation.</p>
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<p>That I could not agree more, but it’s kinda irrelevant to the topic. I like drinking barrels of coffee during hard coding sessions, but it does not mean LLM would like it too.</p> 
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<p>documentation is <em>very important</em> for the models to perform today</p>
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<p>I gave it another thought and I can tell that in my opinion, what would actually improve an LLM code-execute-fix loop drastically, would be <em>generous error messages</em>, being an actual guideline whenever possible, like in Rust:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">help: consider cloning the value if the performance cost is acceptable
    |
269 |             layers: vec![layer_digest.clone()],
    |                                      ++++++++

Some errors have detailed explanations: E0382, E0428.
For more information about an error, try `rustc --explain E0382`.
</code></pre> 
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								<p>Ah right it’s an interesting thought experiment!</p>
<p>Don’t you feel that even if the code is only for the AI, it would still be more efficient for an AI to have higher level languages–not so different from what humans use?</p>
<p>I’d imagine that, even if a programming language was JUST for an AI, high level programming languages would be easier for the AI to reason about and faster to produce. I can’t imagine a benefit for an AI to work with low level coding languages even if humans aren’t involved.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/venkatd/48/9419_2.png" class="avatar"> venkatd:</div>
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<p>I can’t imagine a benefit for an AI to work with low level coding languages even if humans aren’t involved.</p>
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<p>I believe <a class="mention" href="/u/sbuttgereit" rel="nofollow">@sbuttgereit</a> touched on this here:</p>
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<p>OK, maybe there is a terse sort of machine code-like abstraction to achieve portability. But the point stands: the AI becomes the abstraction and shouldn’t need intermediate abstraction layers to be successful.</p>
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<p>But honestly I can’t contribute any deeper than speculation on this topic since I have only read a mere handful of words describing at a very high level how LLMs work.</p> 
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<p>I am not so sure. What Zach has written is a normal scepticism about the hipe, but I have not read it as “more docs would give LLM more context.”</p>
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<p>I had asked him about it on here and he indicated that providing clear documentation on how to write Elixir and Ash were very helpful for improving the model outputs, and I believe he’s now spearheading an effort to get more libraries to add that sort of “condensed” documentation.</p>
<p>To be clear, “context” in my post was a technical term, i.e. the transformer “context window”. In other words, it’s important to include clear instructions within the prompt. Agents are able to “search” through the codebase by various means, including RAG, but this is much less effective than actually having things in context. But the context window is only so large, so you can fit a lot more typespecs than actual code, was my point <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>That I could not agree more, but it’s kinda irrelevant to the topic</p>
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<p>Of course that point was predicated on the preceding argument: docs are good for models, typespecs are good docs (for me), therefore I suspect typespecs are good docs for models.</p>
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<p>I mean, once I have a clean code, LLM would have a documentation produced that would be 100 times better than what I can do myself</p>
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<p>This is actually a very interesting point. If you think about it, what you’re actually doing is pre-computing the model’s understanding of the code and condensing it down so that it can fit into the context of another prompt. It’s similar to RAG, except you are condensing the output into tokens and running it straight through the model.</p>
<p>Some of the latest LLMs are actually doing KV compression natively within the model (compressing the KV cache into a latent vector). It’s all related, I think.</p> 
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								<p>I voted other because I don’t care about static typing but I care about ‘strict typing’, and especially type hinting function parameters. It’s a real drag on my productivity with elixir. And no, writing <a class="mention" href="/u/spec" rel="nofollow">@spec</a> is not up to 2025 standards.</p> 
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								<p>Static typing or not. Most bugs are logical.</p> 
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								<p>Interesting discussions. One aspect in predictions about widespread agentic ai adoption that often gets overlooked is <em>trustworthiness</em>.</p>
<p>In my opinion, there is a possibility within the next 5 years code generation quality, safeguards, agentic ai SDLC loops, and so on could improve to such an extent that risk of introduced vulnerabilities is not significantly greater than average human software development.</p>
<p>But the crux of the matter is, how much would you (would anyone) <em>ever</em> trust AI to fully develop &amp; run software critical for business operations over human developers? And what sort of proof is actually going to convince your average business leader? (My guess, it would require widespread adoption with very few ai-introduced vulnerabilities, so it’s a catch-22). Throw in things like potential job loss, unionization, legalities (was the data LLMs were trained on really permissible?), politics, etc. and the way forward is very bumpy.</p>
<p>After the whole world’s exposure to LLM hallucinations, its trustworthiness is already severely compromised and, despite the very loud AI evangelists, trepidation about it is at an all-time high. Despite many businesses’ FOMO and rush to experiment with it, it’s only going to take one publicized vulnerability introduced by AI to set back agentic software development back years.</p>
<p>With that in mind, I think any current software best practices like static typing (whether you think static typing <em>is</em> a best practice is debatable of course!) and other high-level abstractions of all kind, including non-machine-code languages, are crucial for human verification, which I don’t foresee going away any time soon.</p>
<p>A humanistic ai-enhanced software development process (such as Spec-then-Code*) is the infinitely saner, less apocalyptic way forward  for now for all human parties involved. My $0.02 anyway.</p>
<p><strong><a href="https://github.com/mosofsky/spec-then-code" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">GitHub - mosofsky/spec-then-code: LLM prompts for structured software development because quality takes more than just "good vibes". · GitHub</a></strong><br>
<strong><a href="https://substack.com/inbox/post/162152910" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">From “Vibe Coding” to “Vibe Software Engineering”</a></strong></p> 
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