<turbo-stream action="append" target="posts_list"><template>    <div class="postbit" id="371580" data-post-id="371580">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="JEG2" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/JEG2/120/936_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  JEG2
                    <span class="op-star" title="Thread Starter">
                      <img alt="OP" class="op-star-icon" src="/assets/thread-icons/thread-icon-thread-starter-df91e872.png" />
                    </span>
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
			          <div class="user-title">
									<span>Author of Designing Elixir Systems with OTP</span>
			          </div>
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<p>I assume we all agree that we could estimate some requests with a high degree of confidence.  For example, correcting a spelling error in an event notification message.</p>
<p>This is why I’ve taken to viewing my estimates as a process.  I may start with a very rough guess, be sure to state how many unknowns are involved and how much padding I applied because of it, and offer some short time expenditures to reduce those unknowns and padding.  Then they can choose to work with my rough guess or spend a little time to refine it, which does benefit the work if we end up doing it.  I think that sounds pretty similar to the suggestion of viewing time spent on work as an investment that you may choose to abandon.</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371580" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        1
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/12">Post #11</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371580" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371580"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #11"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371583" data-post-id="371583">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="waseigo" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/waseigo/120/34129_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  waseigo
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<p>Has anyone looked into <a href="https://leanpub.com/acaseagainstestimates" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">A Case Against Estimates</a>?</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371583" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        0
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/13">Post #12</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371583" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371583"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #12"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371585" data-post-id="371585">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="sodapopcan" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/120/34668_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  sodapopcan
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<p>I have not… I’m assuming this question comes with a recommendation?  <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiley.png?v=15" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>I am also a big fan of not estimating at all.  Whatever works.  What I am not a fan of is: “We must estimate because Agile” which is the situation most people are likely in.</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371585" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        3
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/14">Post #13</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371585" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371585"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #13"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371587" data-post-id="371587">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="tfwright" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tfwright/120/20299_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  tfwright
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="sodapopcan" data-post="14" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>What I am not a fan of is: “We must estimate because Agile” which is the situation most people are likely in.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>This comment is a testament in itself to the fact that, no matter how good of a process you have, it will be twisted into its opposite in bad (read: nearly all) organizational conditions. If I had to distill agile to a single point it would be “ship features in order of priority as they are ready.”</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371587" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        2
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/15">Post #14</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371587" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371587"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #14"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371589" data-post-id="371589">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="sodapopcan" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/120/34668_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  sodapopcan
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="tfwright" data-post="15" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tfwright/48/20299_2.png" class="avatar"> tfwright:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>If I had to distill agile to a single point it would be “ship features in order of priority as they are ready.”</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>Sorta?  There is pivoting involved, otherwise this on its own doesn’t stick out as a particularly negative thing.</p>
<p>And ya, I understand it mostly works out negatively, especially since Agile became synonymous with scrum.</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371589" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        1
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/16">Post #15</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371589" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371589"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #15"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371593" data-post-id="371593">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="tfwright" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tfwright/120/20299_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  tfwright
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="sodapopcan" data-post="16" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>There is pivoting involved, otherwise this on its own doesn’t stick out as a particularly negative thing.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>Not following you here, I didn’t mean it as negative thing. Pivoting would be something that follows more or less naturally from shipping features continuously, rather than in long cycles. Ultimately my point is just that if you see orgs doing silly stuff in the name of agile, it’s not because agile is silly, or even that agile is hard. There are just a lot of vested interests to <em>not</em> do it, regardless of anything else.</p>
<p>My favorite is when agile methodology becomes part of the sales pitch to clients who only know it as a buzzword and who then turn around and put pressure on the process to not be agile once they learn that they can’t just email a wishlist and get a quote and a launch date. Dealing with those situations is what is hard, and lots of orgs retain agile in their sales pitch and abandon it in their process. Or worse, retain only worst implementations: daily standups that last way too long, “planning poker” for point values that are never used for anything other than punishing devs that don’t push lots of LOC, etc etc</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371593" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        3
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/17">Post #16</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371593" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371593"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #16"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371595" data-post-id="371595">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="sodapopcan" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/120/34668_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  sodapopcan
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<p>It was me who was misunderstanding you and assuming you were making a general dig at Agile since this is what most people do (and I don’t blame them due to what you describe).</p>
<p>And yes, using it as a sales pitch is ridiculous.  Equally ridiculous as using “object oriented codebase” as a sale pitch.</p>
<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="tfwright" data-post="17" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tfwright/48/20299_2.png" class="avatar"> tfwright:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>“planning poker” for point values that are never used for anything other than punishing devs</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>Ya, you’re nerd sniping me here and I don’t want to make this thread all about Agile since there is a lot more to James’ post.  But yes: story points and even Jira’s metrics become a positive thing once you have the experience of them being <em>private to your team</em>.  When they aren’t being weaponized to keep tabs on and evaluate you, they are actually pretty useful tools for internal planning and understanding what you are capable of delivering.  I’ve actually never had the full on negative experience where it was super toxic, but heard many stories.</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371595" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        2
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/18">Post #17</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371595" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371595"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #17"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371679" data-post-id="371679">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="adamu" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/adamu/120/31482_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  adamu
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="tfwright" data-post="11" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tfwright/48/20299_2.png" class="avatar"> tfwright:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Building bridges is a complex process as well with plenty of unknowns. We are all experts at breaking down complex problems. It is hard because of power dynamics.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>I do think there is something unique to software that is different to pure engineering disciplines and it’s not completely down to power dynamics, which exist everywhere. I suspect it’s that software is really a design process rather than a pure engineering one, with input and creativity needed at every step - it’s a process of discovery, not just execution of a task.</p>
<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="JEG2" data-post="12" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/jeg2/48/936_2.png" class="avatar"> JEG2:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>I assume we all agree that we could estimate some requests with a high degree of confidence. For example, correcting a spelling error in an event notification message.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>Even in trivial cases, it may appear something is a one-word change / five minute job so you say it’ll be done today. But somebody just asked you to attend a meeting this afternoon that has just filled out your schedule for the day, and you have to conduct an interview tomorrow that’ll drain your energy for the rest of the day, so you’ll have start it next week. Or maybe you’ll try to squeeze it in now (and drop the context of what you were already doing to the detriment of that task) because it should a be quick fix.</p>
<p>But once you start to do it, you notice that this needs to go through the localisation system. That’s not going to fit the UI anymore in Indonesian, we’ll need to modify the UI component too… It also breaks an old integration test snapshot, how do you update those again? Looks like nobody’s touched that for a year… etc. etc.</p>
<p>The specifics are not important but I’m trying to demonstrate that for complex systems, even a simple change is difficult to predict with so many unknowns.</p>
<p>Maybe it does only take 5 minutes, that great. But if there is more to it than expected, I think discovering that and identifying that this involves tech debt then adjusting workload accordingly is best. I don’t think that initially planning that the task is going to take 5 minutes (or an hour, or half a day) is any better than simply stating the task exists among others, then checking on the status later. Assigning time slots feels like it’s a distraction that gives the illusion of predictability and encourages unrealistic planning.</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371679" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        1
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/19">Post #18</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371679" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371679"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #18"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371691" data-post-id="371691">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="JEG2" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/JEG2/120/936_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  JEG2
                    <span class="op-star" title="Thread Starter">
                      <img alt="OP" class="op-star-icon" src="/assets/thread-icons/thread-icon-thread-starter-df91e872.png" />
                    </span>
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
			          <div class="user-title">
									<span>Author of Designing Elixir Systems with OTP</span>
			          </div>
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="adamu" data-post="19" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/adamu/48/31482_2.png" class="avatar"> adamu:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Maybe it does only take 5 minutes, that great. But if there is more to it than expected, I think discovering that and identifying that this involves tech debt then adjusting workload accordingly is best.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>Ironically, I feel like this is a huge part of what my blog series actually about.  It’s much less about estimation.  <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="adamu" data-post="19" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/adamu/48/31482_2.png" class="avatar"> adamu:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Assigning time slots feels like it’s a distraction that gives the illusion of predictability and encourages unrealistic planning.</p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>I agree that estimation is hard.  However, I do believe it’s a thing that we can practice and improve at.  I also believe it can be a useful tool to have in your belt.</p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371691" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        2
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/20">Post #19</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371691" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371691"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #19"></div>
  </section>
</div>
    <div class="postbit" id="371697" data-post-id="371697">
  <section>
    <div class="post-wrap">


					<div class="post-header">
		        <div class="user-avatar">
		          <img alt="dimitarvp" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/120/38664_2.png" width="120" height="120" />
		        </div>
					
						<div class="user-details">
		          <div class="user-name">
		            <h3>
                  dimitarvp
                  </h3>
		          </div>
						
						</div>
					
					</div>

	        <div class="thread-main">
	            <div class="post-body" data-turbo="false">
								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="sodapopcan" data-post="9" data-topic="72088">
<div class="title">
<div class="quote-controls"></div>
<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>But also, that’s why sandbagging is key <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/grin.png?v=15" title=":grin:" class="emoji" alt=":grin:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
</blockquote>
</aside>
<p>Thanks for introducing me to <a href="https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sandbag.asp" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">the “sandbagging” term</a>. Interesting. I always knew this but never knew the name. Thanks. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/heart.png?v=15" title=":heart:" class="emoji" alt=":heart:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
	            </div>

	            <div class="base-line">
	                <div class="thread-counters">
	                    <span class="thread-count count-likes js-likers-trigger" title="Likes" data-post-id="371697" data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                        1
                      </span>
                      <!-- <span class="thread-count js-solved-indicator" title="Marked as solution"></span> -->
	                </div>
	                <div class="go-to-post">
	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/why-is-this-hard/72088/21">Post #20</a>
	                </div>
	            </div>
              <div id="likers-container-371697" 
                   class="likers-container"
                   data-first-post="false"
                   data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                   <div class="likers-placeholder" 
                     data-likers-post-id="371697"
                     data-batch-url="/posts/batch_likers">
                  <div class="post-likers"></div>
                </div>
              </div>
	        </div>
			

    </div>

    <div class="triangle-top-right type-standard-post cat-standard-post" title="Post #20"></div>
  </section>
</div>
</template></turbo-stream><turbo-stream action="replace" target="load-more-container"><template><div id="load-more-container" class="load-more-container">
    <a class="load-more-button" data-turbo-stream="true" href="/topics/72088/load_more?page=3">Load more posts (19 remaining)</a>
</div></template></turbo-stream>