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                  jam
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								<p>fwiw, I’m not a fan of the out of the box defaults either. I also think it’s a bit odd that the flags are opt out instead of opt in. Having said that I can appreciate giving people a nice starting point.</p>
<p>Maybe the solve for this is to have one more flag, e.g. <code>—minimal</code> or <code>—bare</code>, or flip it and start with almost nothing and opt in to certain things and have a single <code>—starter</code> that opts you into to everything the default currently has. Another idea: bring this package into core or something like it so people can customize more easily: <a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/project-automate-common-phoenix-tasks-so-you-can-start-building-your-idea-faster/73867/6" class="inline-onebox" rel="nofollow">Project - Automate common Phoenix tasks so you can start building your idea faster - #6 by marcxrand</a></p> 
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								<p>Sorry for this shameless intrusion. <a href="https://github.com/gurujada/sutra_ui" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">GitHub - gurujada/sutra_ui: A shadcn inspired library for Phoenix LiveView with CSS first styling · GitHub</a> - we did this.  <a href="https://sutraui.gurujada.com/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://sutraui.gurujada.com/</a> is where we have deployed a demo of all the components. We are planning to ship generators which will generate CRUD interfaces with this theme and <a href="https://github.com/gurujada/live_table" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">GitHub - gurujada/live_table: LiveTable helps you build realtime datatables for the web · GitHub</a> - so that you have powerful admin interfaces with no cost.</p> 
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								<p>Agreed. I don’t think it should be default. At minimum a flag as suggested should be included.</p>
<p>I thought Daisy was awesome, until I used it in a fairly complex app (more than a weekend project). And then really felt boxed in by it. Ended up just creating custom components styled with Tailwind (which I had Claude write, since I’m not a big front end guy) - and was much better for me.</p> 
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									<span>Author of Ash Framework</span>
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								<p>Honestly, no matter which approach the Phoenix team takes, there’s going to be a vocal crowd of anti-that-approach devs. They’re currently optimizing for a good out-of-the-box experience to get people up and running quickly. And while it doesn’t suit my tastes either, it’s totally fine.</p> 
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								<p>If it isn’t a lot of code I think a <code>--no-daisy</code> flag is reasonable. However, the reality is that I start a new <strong>serious</strong> project every 5 years so it’s not like I have to remove daisyui from a new project every 3 weeks.</p> 
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								<p>Okay, well, I guess I was too quick to discount the possibility that your opinions <em>are</em> the same as mine.</p>
<p>Take your argument to its logical conclusion. How do you make the components compose? What needs to be done?</p> 
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<p>Honestly, no matter which approach the Phoenix team takes, there’s going to be a vocal crowd of anti-that-approach devs.</p>
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<p>This is entirely true, and it’s why feedback can only get you so far. There is no accounting for taste.</p>
<p>The React team practically had a pitchfork mob chasing after them when they introduced hooks, yet they were completely right. The difference between them and the mob in question was that they had spent a whole lot more time thinking about the problem.</p> 
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								<p>So, this comes at two levels. The first is fixing the framework’s component APIs.</p>
<p>Top level live views are have a bunch of features that nested components (be they live components or functional components) don’t have. This is a problem because it means if you want to do a bunch of things you have to do them in the root live view, this breaks composition. There should be 1 component API, that has a mount, update, render, and unmount callback (the lack of this makes a whole class of things impossible in live view because you can’t reliably clean up after yourself). All the other stuff live views are doing should be mix-ins (though we’d probably end up calling them hooks). Want to get/set URL info, that’s a hook. Want to run in a separate process from the parent component that’s rendering you, that’s a hook (really more like a flag), and it shouldn’t change your rendering semantics one bit. Want to get/set the page title, that’s a hook.</p>
<p>Okay, once that’s done, time to fix core components. First, build a suite a headless components. Then build a suite of concrete components on top of that suite. I could maybe be convinced that skipping the headless/concrete division is okay given most apps are not going to ever have a need for multiple concrete versions of the same headless component (though a flag would still be nice). Anyway, components shouldn’t be using margin, I would have hopped this would be obvious in 2026, alas… These components should be decomposable to the smallest unit of design that a UI will need to render. That is not a whole ass form field that includes a label and errors. Finally, these components should allow you to provide the rendering semantics you want. Vanilla live view forms are fundamentally unusable for a whole class of apps that need to drive forms from the server because ultimately they make the decision for you about what is the source of truth and when. E.g. if an input is focused it will ignore any updates from the server, this breaks ui = f(state) in a really profound way.</p>
<p>Also, just to get ahead of it, no I’m not going to do any of this myself. I have a job, and even if I had the time outside of work, I’d spend it building my own thing or improving a different framework that I thought was making better decisions. There always seems to be this defense when something is criticized that unless the person doing the criticizing is willing to fix it themselves, the criticism isn’t valid. That’s silly.</p> 
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								<p>The problem with composition is much deeper than you suggest. LiveView’s component structure is completely flat. Components are mounted with global ids, and the responsibility of choosing those ids is passed onto the developer. The id requirement itself does not compose; each parent must pass an id to its children, which means it must have an id of its own, and so on. The concerns of the components become quite badly intertwined, defeating their purpose. It’s actually a pretty textbook example of what Hickey was talking about.</p>
<p>I do not know LV’s engine in extreme detail, but I know enough to know that it’s mostly template-based and treats conditionals as first-class citizens. This structure is actually very problematic, because it means the component tree is not a strict superset of the DOM tree as it would be in, for example, React. That in turn makes implicitly mounting stateful components by their tree positions very messy if not outright intractable. So instead the engine cheats with global ids.</p>
<p>This <em>can</em> be fixed, but it’s not easy. The whole thing probably has to be rewritten from scratch, the template approach thrown away in favor of a full element-level tree, the server/client protocol rewritten, and so on. Backwards compatibility would likely be broken because it’s good to know whether a component should be unmounted during the local diff cycle, so the “teleportation” ability should probably be removed.</p>
<p>It’s a lot of work. So the question becomes: does anyone using Phoenix actually care? And given that you are the only individual I have ever seen (other than myself) voice this concern, I think the answer is “not really”.</p>
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<p>if an input is focused it will ignore any updates from the server, this breaks ui = f(state) in a really profound way</p>
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<p>This actually cannot be fixed as far as I can tell. It’s an inherent tradeoff with latency.</p>
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<p>and unmount callback (the lack of this makes a whole class of things impossible in live view because you can’t reliably clean up after yourself)</p>
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<p>I strongly recommend you avoid reading the thread where I unsuccessfully attempted to explain this to I think at least four different people lol.</p>
<p>Strangely it is actually possible, as after a week of wasting my time thinking about it I realized that you can abuse the client-side <code>phx-remove</code> binding to run a callback on the server. Utterly cursed, of course.</p> 
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                  AHBruns
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/3bc359/48.png" class="avatar"> garrison:</div>
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<p>This actually cannot be fixed as far as I can tell. It’s an inherent tradeoff with latency.</p>
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<p>It can. I did it last year for my job. The trick is that, while you can’t get strongly consistent rendering, you can get eventually consistent rendering. Client components just have to track both their state and what the server thinks their state is, and then you version every state change. If the server’s state is the same version as the client’s state, it takes precedent, if the client’s state is a version ahead of the server’s state, the client’s state takes precedent, but only until the server gets the update and sends back its copy of state for that version.</p>
<p>What gets really tricky is when state changes don’t originate from the client. To handle that I needed to implement the notion of branching. Effectively, when the server pushes an update all on its own, it is forking the version history and the client has logic to merge that forked version history back into its own. In our case that logic was basically to just let the server entirely overwrite the client’s state, but it could be a fancier CRDT based solution if needed. E.g. multiplayer form editing where you want multiple people to be able to type in the same field at once</p>
<p>Anyway, point is, it can be done, though you’re right it does require giving up strongly consistent rendering. My bigger point is that this is absolutely something I would expect a framework like LiveView to do for me, or at least to make straightforward to do myself.</p> 
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