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								<p>All of these are very reasonable by me.</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, I also love the pipe operator, it’s just that many people love to get creative turning everything they can into a “pipeline.”  It’s maddening as “looks cool” but doesn’t help with readability or debugging.  I’ve also run into several instances over the years where it makes changing code really hard because all the code was tailored to work with pipes that didn’t lend well to changing steps in between (at least not in a sensible way).</p>
<p>I’ve said this a lot in the past but the small surface area of Elixir is very expressive where the constructs you use can communicate a lot about the code (“the medium is the message” if you will).  For example, if I see <code>with</code> I think, “multiple side effects.”  If I see a pipline, I think “effect-free data transformation that always comes out the other side.”  I’ve found that whenever you find a pipe naturally breaking, it’s almost always means that it’s a good place to break it and assign it to a variable.  This is especially true when see folks adding comments as to what the data looks likes like at this point.</p>
<p>There are a whole bunch of other things along these lines.  Like piping into <code>elem</code> when you know its length is never better than pattern matching, I consider <code>then</code> and <code>tap</code> mostly evil (they are useful for debugging albeit pretty much just useful for debugging nasty pipelines), and don’t me started on <code>|&gt; Kenerl.+</code>.</p>
<p>I do agree it gets murky with the raw value thing and “no single pipe.”  For me it comes down to taste and it’s hard to describe and I don’t get too hung up about.  For instance I also don’t like <code>x |&gt; Foo()</code>, though in a changeset I will often do:</p>
<pre data-code-wrap="elixir"><code class="lang-elixir">foo
|&gt; cast(attrs, [:bar, :baz])
</code></pre>
<p>because there is often going to be more coming and makes for nicer diffs.  I dunno, again, it’s more to taste and doesn’t really hinder readability/changeability in any meaningful way.</p>
<p>Of course it all comes down to taste, but I’ve come across a lot of production code that is full of “pipelines” that contains multiple different data-structures and multiple side-effects.  It’s in these extreme, and unfortunately common, cases I say “to heck with your art” (or just type “LGTM” and hit “Approve”).</p> 
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								<p>I hope that this is true. It’s not clear to me how things will play out. I imagine people on the other side of the argument would say precisely the opposite — the artistry way will be displaced moving forward (if it hasn’t been already). After all, this line of thinking happens to align nicely with the capitalist motive.</p>
<p>Interestingly, the guy who coined the “vibecoding” term doesn’t actually vibe code but rather liberally uses tab autocomplete, which I guess would be more in the vein of industrial with perhaps a bit more involvement and opportunity for artistry than pure mindlessness though seems easy to drift towards the latter.</p>
<p>As an aside, I also find it interesting that the most prominent voices in this community seem to champion the industrial way. I suppose with the belief that LLM slop is good enough as is and will only get better from here. Regardless, it all feels a bit prisoner’s dilemma. Among programmers, I wonder who is thinking of the 2nd and 3rd order implications of this path and what those pursuing it are ultimately hoping for — probably worthy of an entire separate discussion.</p>
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<p>if LLMs are going to get to the point where they are so good anyone can use them easily</p>
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<p>If this happens, is there any point anymore? Maybe if you’re solo-preneuring (or own equity) or coding as a hobby. This would drive the value of programmers to zero. The point of leverage shifts almost entirely to marketing and sales activities rather than a technical solution that can be copied ad infinitum. I thought that perhaps software quality could be a differentiating factor but I can’t say I’m confident in that hypothesis. Hopefully it bears out. The world deserves better software.</p> 
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<p>If this happens, is there any point anymore? Maybe if you’re solo-preneuring (or own equity) or coding as a hobby. This would drive the value of programmers to zero.</p>
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<p>I didn’t mean this, I mean insofar as getting agents to do something useful without “prompting skills” being a bottleneck (or even a thing).  I personally don’t see how humans aren’t going to be needed to vet the output for the foreseeable future, but who knows.</p> 
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<p>Of course it all comes down to taste</p>
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<p>And this is the entirety of my point. None of this pipe abuse stuff has anything to do with pipes. If we removed pipes from the language those people would find something else to screw up, because their value function is fundamentally misaligned.</p>
<p>The only way to learn what is maintainable is to <em>practice</em>, i.e. to spend time maintaining your code.</p>
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<p>But I really didn’t want to give up the credo rule about starting with a raw value</p>
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<p>This is exactly why I don’t like this stuff. The attributes that make code “good” or “maintainable” are enormously complex and subtle. Like with any trade, the ability to do this properly is downstream of many years of deliberate practice.</p>
<p>I will not allow a computer to tell me what to do.</p>
<p>It does not know better than me.</p> 
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<p>And this is the entirety of my point. None of this pipe abuse stuff has anything to do with pipes. If we removed pipes from the language those people would find something else to screw up, because their value function is fundamentally misaligned.</p>
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<p>Oh for sure, it’s just I’ve never quite witnessed the same degree of “syntax fever” before, so I get extra grumpy <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/upside_down_face.png?v=15" title=":upside_down_face:" class="emoji" alt=":upside_down_face:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">  But I also haven’t used too many languages professionally.  Ultimately, is what it is <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/person_shrugging.png?v=15" title=":person_shrugging:" class="emoji" alt=":person_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>Quality software has already become enormously rare, and the principles and techniques used to develop it have already been largely forgotten. It’s astonishing how quickly that happened.</p>
<p>Most web devs have no idea how to build anything other than rigid forms and rigid SQL tables duct-taped together with GET and POST. Getting past that its actually <em>really</em> hard because there are essentially no resources to learn from. And all of the tooling is built for these patterns, too.</p>
<p>Even tools which were carefully and deliberately designed to climb out of this hole, like React, are mostly just abused by people who don’t know what to do with them. Like, if you build a React SPA that hits a RESTful API tied to a bunch of rigid Postgres tables, what was the point?</p>
<p>But the thing about LLMs right now is that they don’t seem to be generalizing to anywhere near human intelligence. They can write code but they’re still mirroring the training set. And because “good apps” are practically extinct there’s nothing to be gained from this.</p>
<p>I am fairly confident than in the consumer space quality will win over time.</p>
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<p>I also find it interesting that the most prominent voices in this community seem to champion the industrial way</p>
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<p>And they have every right to champion what they believe in. It’s our job to push back and provide another perspective.</p> 
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<p>This is exactly why I don’t like this stuff. The attributes that make code “good” or “maintainable”</p>
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<p>Surely you are not suggesting that starting a pipe with a raw value is some "forgotten lore” key to writing good software that we’re losing because we use credo.</p>
<p>Look, when I work on my own stuff, I also let myself be more creative with how I am using and organizing code. I strongly believe that helps me improve my skills (especially when it’s not just another crud app). But the reality of working on teams is that we have to focus on the conversations that are the most productive. The computer is not telling me what to do, I am working with a team that collectively decided to let the computer handle that decision so that we can discuss more important architectural decisions. And none of that has anything to do with LLMs, where it is precisely the <em>creative</em> decisions that have been handed over.</p> 
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								<p>I found squabbling over syntax unproductive the very first time I encountered it and this has not changed for over 20 years.</p>
<p>As <a class="mention" href="/u/tfwright" rel="nofollow">@tfwright</a> very adequately points out, at one one point it’s best to leave any conflicts behind and just focus on what truly matters. That would be the data and architecture.</p>
<p>I find arguments over craftmanship / being an artisan / having a creative freedom by getting ourselves liberated from the tyranny of a tool, a bit facetious and pretentious. We are here to get work done for money. If I could only code as a hobby then my views would likely be different but that’s not my reality.</p>
<p>And yeah LLMs are barely relevant here. They simply exposed the triviality of a lot of shovel-ware commercial programming.</p>
<p>The only thing I can agree with <a class="mention" href="/u/garrison" rel="nofollow">@garrison</a> here is that writing quality software is indeed looking like it’s disappearing quickly. But it will make a comeback with a bang. I, like many of my kind, am simply waiting for the LLM hype wave to subside a bit. There will be metric tons of slop to fix. And many will start appreciating good quality and will pay even better for it.</p>
<p>The only question is how long will that take. Some societal shifts move with the speed of a glacier.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/elixir-influences-on-javascript-es2025/73240/39">Post #38</a>
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<p>Surely you are not suggesting that starting a pipe with a raw value is some "forgotten lore” key to writing good software that we’re losing because we use credo</p>
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<p>No, I think you are blending my last two replies (on two different topics) together. My reply to <a class="mention" href="/u/jam" rel="nofollow">@jam</a> was baking in a lot of context from previous discussions that I know he is aware of.</p>
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<p>I am working with a team that collectively decided to let the computer handle that decision so that we can discuss more important architectural decisions</p>
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<p>Hey, I get it. I acknowledged this when I brought up formatters.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that nowhere in my reply did I tell you what you should be doing. I don’t care what you do. If you’re happy, keep doing it. It doesn’t affect me.</p>
<p>I was only using your commentary on Credo to elaborate upon my own feelings.</p>
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<p>And none of that has anything to do with LLMs, where it is precisely the <em>creative</em> decisions that have been handed over.</p>
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<p>I am not interested in defending these practices, but my impression is that vibecoders would strongly disagree with you here. They believe they are retaining creative control (by prompting) and that the code itself is immaterial.</p>
<p>This was not the point I was trying to make, though. I actually just do not like linters and code formatters lol.</p> 
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<p>I actually just do not like linters and code formatters lol.</p>
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<p>It’s obviously your right to do so. In a team setting that’s simply not an option however.</p> 
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