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                  dimitarvp
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								<p>Unfortunately <a class="mention" href="/u/billylanchantin" rel="nofollow">@billylanchantin</a> more or less nailed the topic’s nuances and reasoning so I am left feeling almost useless trying to contribute. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiley.png?v=15" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>I am not an economist and I will not pretend that I am. But I don’t quite agree that us the programmers are naive or blind to it. Our systems thinking does help us analyze things on a decent level.</p>
<p>To that end, AI companies are actually painting targets on their backs; them taking away livelihoods makes them actively hated and gradually worked against by other, also quite big, players – do you think big chains of grocery stores want to see 12% revenue reduction? They will start doing something.</p>
<p>I feel like, in the bigger picture, we are gradually entering a phase where mega-capitalists will start turning on each other. The market is not infinite and many of the AI companies are discovering this in a very painful way (most of them operate at a loss).</p>
<p>Sorry, that was a bit of a digression. But still related.</p>
<hr>
<p>On to the topic itself, more directly:  AI will not replace barely any programmer longer-term. The fact that the ruling class <em>wants</em> that to be true and that they are firing many people is just the effect of a collective delusion – one that already is beginning to fade because many vibe-coded apps cannot be easily extended by AI, or when they are, they have loads of bugs.</p>
<p>The thing that most people miss about the influence of AI / LLMs is this:</p>
<p><strong>It has nearly peaked and it cannot do much more than it already does.</strong></p>
<p>The next play are sub-agents and complex agentic workflows. I like those because they play to the LLM’s strengths: smaller-scope tasks. So the sub-agents workflows have a <em>real</em> chance of actually replacing a programmer.</p>
<p>But who gives them the detailed plans? The clueless project managers that are hand-waving requirements and are leaving you, the programmer, to define the project’s scope and priorities, i.e. doing their job for them? How will those people be able to prompt the multi-agent LLM systems?</p>
<p>I remain very skeptical on that point.</p>
<p>Now one can say that because I have a vested interest in our profession not disappearing and as such my takes cannot be trusted. While that would be somewhat fair to say, I believe it would be misguided because in my experience most people cannot see long-tail effects.</p>
<hr>
<p>So let us try to hypothesize a few long-tail effects?</p>
<ul>
<li>Loads of vibe-coded apps that are near-impossible to extend. Let us assume the absolute very best-case scenario for the owner / ruling class: that the LLMs would still be able to maintain their own slop. But in order to do so, they would require more and more tokens and thus higher rent. I guarantee you that most capitalists will <em>not</em> like that and <em>will</em> do something about it.</li>
<li>Good chunk of people will give up on programming. Whether that’s good or bad I don’t want to theorize.</li>
<li>…However, I posit that at one point companies will want more programmers again. I am fairly sure the demand might never swing back to what it was back in f.ex. 2019 but there will be some increased demand. Which means that the remaining programmers would be, theoretically, able to command pre-COVID salaries by the mere virtue of the laws of supply and demand.</li>
<li>Jobs are being lost even now but I believe this is only a few-years trend. These people will not just lay down and die. They’ll find another place in the economy. Which brings me to:</li>
<li>Reducing the general populace’s buying power will not go unpunished. Think of the AI companies as a powerful and large but disorganized army. Their first blitz-krieg attacks had a crushing success but they cannot be everywhere and their limitations are already acutely felt by many. The “resistance” is already organizing.</li>
</ul>
<p>TL;DR we are near the end of a bubble. I am not sure how doom-and-gloom the scenario would be; maybe a few blips on the stock market or maybe a full-blown crash leading to many other effects – no idea. But the current unsustainable pace cannot be kept for much longer.</p>
<p>And oh yeah, ChatGPT will include ads very soon. Surprising nobody in the IT area.</p>
<p>Even shorter TL;DR – the amount of programmers will get reduced but not by as much as predicted by many doom-sayers, and technical expertise will be even more valuable in some mere 2 - 5 years from now. Just endure the storm.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/astonj/48/15_2.png" class="avatar"> AstonJ:</div>
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<p>I’d like to think more popular languages might be hit first, but we’ve already seen it fairly close to home:</p>
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<p>That’s the same Klarna that had to scramble to rehire support staff, correct? <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6c3193d1dd46244da3c8c6f719c9f5e2abdd5ae8.gif?v=15" title=":003:" class="emoji emoji-custom" alt=":003:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Why would anyone take what they think about AI seriously after that legendary fluke – one that a well-educated 12-years old could have prevented – is beyond me.</p>
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<p>MIT study finds AI can already replace 11.7% of U.S. workforce</p>
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<p>Ah yes, the labor simulation tool that is a perfect reflection of reality. Mmmm-hmmm.</p>
<p>These predictions are short-sighted. Again and as per above, that also means nearly $1.2 trillion less spending in the economy. I wish the companies relying on people buying stuff, a very good luck.</p> 
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								<p>And, as if to prove me right, I find this article posted on HN today:</p>
<aside class="onebox allowlistedgeneric" data-onebox-src="https://www.theverge.com/news/836212/openai-code-red-chatgpt">
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      <img src="https://www.theverge.com/static-assets/icons/favicon.ico" class="site-icon" alt="" width="48" height="48">

      <a href="https://www.theverge.com/news/836212/openai-code-red-chatgpt" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc" title="11:40AM - 02 December 2025">The Verge – 2 Dec 25</a>
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    <div class="aspect-image" style="--aspect-ratio:690/360;"><img src="https://platform.theverge.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/12/STK201_SAM_ALTMAN_CVIRGINIA_C.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C10.732984293194%2C100%2C78.534031413613&amp;w=1200" class="thumbnail" alt="" width="690" height="358"></div>

<h3><a href="https://www.theverge.com/news/836212/openai-code-red-chatgpt" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">OpenAI declares ‘code red’ as Google catches up in AI race</a></h3>

  <p>Google’s own ‘code red’ response to ChatGPT has started paying off.</p>


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<p>The market is not limitless. The AI players are starting to discover that obvious truth.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/astonj/48/15_2.png" class="avatar"> AstonJ:</div>
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<li>What kind of impact do you think AI will have on programming/tech jobs?</li>
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<p>It was never, in my opinion, about punching holes in cards, or to type words into the screen.</p>
<p>The physical act of typing has never been the bottleneck, to clarify, while boilerplate coding hasn’t been the bottleneck, building the right thing correctly has always consumed the real time and skill.</p>
<p>What I see happening is this, standard web app scaffolding gets vibe coded by AI tools from Figma, Firebasestudio, Vercel, etc, eventually these interfaces (UIs) become more entrenched as commodity, and less and less as artisanal craft, yet another form filling process excercise but even more vibed, wrapped in more magic.</p>
<p>However, it is vibed in a fundamentally complicating way, this base vibe layer will amplify old problems.</p>
<p>The people doing product or requirements work frequently do not know what they want, or are not able to articulate it clearly, or are not asking the right questions to refine the vague idea into a real solution.</p>
<p>Vibe coding speeds up implementation far faster than it clarifies intent.</p>
<p>Eventually, the vibes end, and stewardship begins.</p>
<p>The translation from ambiguous requirements into something useful has been a lot more than “programming.” It’s domain and constraint modelling, trade off management, expectation setting, being able to say “no”, “not yet” in the right way.</p>
<p>While this vibe commodity production peaks, other base input demand shifts, and will also accelerate these shifts.</p>
<p>AI driven generation becomes infrastructural, predictable, and ultimately boring, the way all utilities eventually become boring.</p>
<p>And with boring comes the real processes:</p>
<p>security<br>
cost reduction<br>
optimization<br>
maintenance<br>
feature iteration<br>
market validation<br>
governance<br>
stewardship<br>
finding out if anyone wanted the thing in the first place</p>
<p>Basically, all the stuff that successful software has always required, but that gets highlighted and amplified once the “easy” scaffolding is automated even further.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/astonj/48/15_2.png" class="avatar"> AstonJ:</div>
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<li>Have you or anyone you know been impacted directly?</li>
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<p>Yes, a friend of mine, did not pivot and hasn’t been able to find frontend work for quite a while now.</p>
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<li>Does it concern or worry you?</li>
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<p>Yes it does worry me a bit, especially when it comes to MCP tooling, might as well run random code from the internet with root.</p> 
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								<p>From <a href="https://github.com/tigerbeetle/tigerbeetle/blob/main/docs/TIGER_STYLE.md" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">TigerStyle</a>:</p>
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<p>The hardest part, then, is how much thought goes into everything.</p>
<p>We spend this mental energy upfront, proactively rather than reactively, because we know that when the thinking is done, what is spent on the design will be dwarfed by the implementation and testing, and then again by the costs of operation and maintenance.</p>
<p>An hour or day of design is worth weeks or months in production</p>
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								<p>.. and when the Fed/Gov then intervenes (again) to bail out the “too big to f-AI-l” and it then transfers trillions if not tens of trillions borrowed from tax receipts (in a far-away future), while both the SWE’s and non-SWE’s are left holding the bag and footing the bill in yet another double digit inflation cycle.</p>
<p>Or in short, business as usual.</p> 
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								<p>I don’t see this talked about, but I find a general mismatch in time-scale of AI-generated new products and sales cycle.</p>
<p>Consumer products that can be vibe-coded are never essential goods, and rarely high value.  If they were essential and high-value, it would already have been built; many of the “high value” AI-products strike me as monetized on the creator’s existing reputation (they could have sold random bits and someone would buy it. Seriously, remember NFTs? <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/laughing.png?v=15" title=":laughing:" class="emoji" alt=":laughing:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">).</p>
<p>Business / institution products often have a long sales cycle, measured in 3-18 months.  Important decisions need to percolate up in regular meetings that only happen so often.  Due diligence (which usually include evaluation of longevity / stability of the project, esp if it inserts itself in critical places) and obtaining quotes all take time.  Can any vibe-coder guarantee their ware won’t be superceded by the time the contract ends?  “constantly adding new features” sounds like… “not stable”.  And then, for OpenAI/gemini wrappers, you can’t even guarantee a level of performance and any non-dumb decision makers know that.</p>
<p>Finally, what can be vibed by Peter can be vibed by Paul.</p>
<p>So it brings the utility largely to brownfield projects, extending whatever you had, that wasn’t valuable enough to be built at first place.  The one extra feature in Word that 0.01% users cares about *but every other user else thought it just complicates things*, a feature that nonetheless needs to be managed indefinitely.</p>
<p>Within this category, the truly novel are those hooked onto live LLMs, but those are architecturally non-deterministic, and their “yields” and future costs are both unstable even on a 1-year time scale.</p>
<p>I don’t really know where is the general monetary value.  “Harry Potter” sells a lot doesn’t mean writing is a viable vocation for most people, but I tend to see AI-products justified on some singular product (that often fades out within weeks. Like those LLM pins or whatever.)</p> 
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								<p>Just noticed this story…</p>
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<p><strong>Twitter co-founder Jack Dorsey says his technology firm Block is laying off almost half its workforce because artificial intelligence (AI) “fundamentally changes what it means to build and run a company.”</strong></p>
<p>“Within the next year, I believe the majority of companies will reach the same conclusion and make similar structural changes,” he wrote in <a href="https://s29.q4cdn.com/628966176/files/doc_financials/2025/q4/Q4-2025-Shareholder-Letter_Block.pdf" rel="nofollow">a letter to shareholders, external</a>.</p>
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<h3><a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq570d12y9do" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow">Jack Dorsey's Block cuts thousands of roles as it embraces AI</a></h3>

  <p>The Twitter co-founder says he believes the majority of firms will make similar changes "within the next year."</p>


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								<p>That is AI-washing of layouts to mine profits, complete FUD</p> 
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								<p>Ok, he said it to his shareholders so it must be true? No chance in hell AI’s being used as an excuse to (finally) get rid of slackers and/or boost the stock price?</p>
<p>Let’s not forget it wasn’t that long ago when Elon fired like 80% of the staff from (Jack’s) Twitter - with no “AI” around. It’s true Jack was no longer in charge at the time Elon acquired it, but the malpractice of simply employing more (unnecessary) people just to look “better” to the investors had been around for a while and not just at Twitter.</p>
<p>Counter to common (financial) sense, just 4 years ago in tech the headcount used to be one of the principal metrics of success (as in the more the merrier). It even reached the bubbling insanity point when certain “experts” entertained a thought by which the employee-related costs should be capitalized on the balance sheet(!!!).</p>
<p>Well, the tide (hype) is turning now. The pretty much same group of people are now trying to convince us that the exact opposite is true, albeit rephrased as AI. The only question is how much substance was actually there in the old bubble and how much of it is n the new one.</p> 
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