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<p>I mean, now you <em>do</em> sound like a metaphysical dualist.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Do I? I’d say that things I’ve describe as “real unreals” are abstraction layers on top of consciousness. They’re real in a sense that you’re experiencing them and that they can be composed into something like “culture”, but they don’t exist as a separate “plane of existance” (which is what I thought dualism implies). I’d say they’re all subjective and not objective truths of the world.</p>
<p>Maybe I’m just thinking about dualism wrong <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>So this is where I really have to challenge you because I think you have drawn this line fairly arbitrarily.</p>
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<p>I’ll try to think how to better describe distinction between the two. Maybe my previous description of “abstraction layers on top of consciousness” is more useful here. I didn’t think about it in quiet some time (good that this conversation happened and gave me something to think about again). I guess I’ll let my thoughts on the topic marinate a bit.</p>
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<p>I hate to see attempts at philosophy shut down because they are not “provable”</p>
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<p>No disagreement here. I’m only opposed to dragging religious concepts (like soul) into such conversations as I think that they’re much more loaded and they’re not useful nor necessary here. Other than that I’m very much interested in discussions of self consciousness of AI, moral/ethical side of AI usage (like at what point if any do we grant the thing any rights) and anything around it.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/cmo/48/19618_2.png" class="avatar"> cmo:</div>
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<p>I believe the end goal is for the brains to play multiplayer Quake with each other.</p>
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<p>I am ahead of the curve, I downloaded a Quake2 mod back in 1998-1999, set to “adaptive” difficulty level and observed the bots, especially how they tried to not die. One of them even discovered rocket jumps by itself! It was one of the things that made me even more interested in programming (at that point I was already an overconfident hobbyist).</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/nxy7/48/26800_2.png" class="avatar"> nxy7:</div>
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<p>how are you going to tell apart self-awareness from something perfectly pretending to be self-aware</p>
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<p>To me that mixes philosophy with empirical evidence; if something is able to self-improve all the way to the point of either completely solving a problem or admitting the lack of tools (like our quantum physicists hit a limit where they can’t influence particles below a certain level) then that thing is IMO self-aware by extension of the observable fact that it can observe its attempts at something fail and then self-correct.</p>
<p>It’s a bit of a stretch, granted, but it’s a good working / draft definition.</p>
<p>As for soul or self-awareness, well, as some cyberpunk anime movies and series dialogue goes:</p>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>(Human) Are you real? Are you pretending so well so as to be mistaken for a human?</li>
<li>(Android) If I pretend up to the point of perfection, then does it matter if I pretend? And is it a pretense at all if it’s perfect?</li>
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<p>That too does not go 100% there f.ex. the AI robot can pretend perfectly but only temporarily. But eh. We need some working definitions, even if imperfect.</p> 
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								<p>Or, one can also read Descartes wrote almost 400 years before “cyberpunk” was a thing:</p>
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<p>But then if I look out of the window and see men crossing<br>
the square, as I just happen to have done, I normally say that I see the men themselves,<br>
just as I say that I see the wax. Yet do I see any more than hats and coats which could<br>
conceal automatons? I judge that they are men. And so something which I thought I was<br>
seeing with my eyes is in fact grasped solely by the faculty of judgment which is in my<br>
mind.</p>
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<p>Would it matter if they were automatons? How could that possibly be a empirical question? It is the <em>empiricist</em> in us that precisely wants to know, _is_ it a man or a machine. But what does that tell us in end? It’s just a taxonomical classification. Whether it’s “true” probably starts to matter about when we decide whether the guy in the coat would make a good slave.</p>
<p>But if we prefer the genre of cyberpunk to philosophy, I’ll take Blade Runner:</p>
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<p>Quite an experience to live in fear, isn’t it? That’s what it is to be a slave.</p>
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<p>Not an empirical question, unless you enjoy going around in circles.</p> 
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								<p>Well I was mostly interested in narrowing down “self-awareness”. I don’t get your point about Descartes vs. cyberpunk. As long as the takeaways are the same then the source does not matter.</p> 
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								<p>My point was that philosophers have been trying to “narrow down self-awareness” for a long time, and I don’t think the takeaways are quite the same.  I love art of all kinds but it does not substitute for reasoning. Maybe it was not your intention with your line about mixing philosophy with empirical evidence, but simply pointing out that something is not observable fact does not make it useless or worthless. The argument your android seems to be making hardly seems to be a case for empiricism. In the case of Descartes it is precisely an argument for idealism, that truth can never be obtained empirically.</p>
<p><strong>edit</strong> also worth noting that famous empiricist and anti-Cartesian Hume fully agreed that truth in the sense most people mean, indubitable, certain, eternal, etc cannot be derived from empirical evidence. His conclusion is that we just give up on truth (or redefine it as matters of fact). So, morality as well, sadly, is just vibes so make of that what you will.</p> 
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<p>Would it matter if they were automatons?</p>
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<p>Aren’t they? <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/wink.png?v=15" title=":wink:" class="emoji" alt=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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