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                  Lucassifoni
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								<p>Well, my mother-in-law was an accountant and worked with RPG II/III and then COBOL on midrange IBMs, which was quite standard at the time and seen as accountant work, not programming work.</p>
<p>It was common for french small/medium businesses to have their accounting and payroll tooling done bespoke in-house by the accountants before on-shelf software started to be more common. They saw “actual” computer engineers as another fully separate trade who developed the systems and infra this ran on.</p>
<p>Sure, they didn’t develop robust comprehensive code, but filled a bit of the software needs of those companies.</p>
<p>But this wasn’t seen as software development. Today vibe-shipping a POC without knowing the underlying programming isn’t fully seen as software development either though, but that doesn’t stop the economic narrative.</p>
<p></p><div class="lightbox-wrapper"><a class="lightbox" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/3X/f/3/f3173c7d14efbf88da9efe49bad4278057b26e1e.jpeg" data-download-href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/f3173c7d14efbf88da9efe49bad4278057b26e1e" title="IMG_4056 - Moyenne" rel="nofollow"><img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/3X/f/3/f3173c7d14efbf88da9efe49bad4278057b26e1e.jpeg" alt="IMG_4056 - Moyenne" data-base62-sha1="yGtO989nSAFRU7ZASbQW4QrU9eC" width="320" height="278"><div class="meta"><svg class="fa d-icon d-icon-far-image svg-icon" aria-hidden="true"><use href="#far-image"></use></svg><span class="filename">IMG_4056 - Moyenne</span><span class="informations">640×557 64.5 KB</span><svg class="fa d-icon d-icon-discourse-expand svg-icon" aria-hidden="true"><use href="#discourse-expand"></use></svg></div></a></div><p></p>
<p>Heck, they even already gave out mugs at the time <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> (fully anachronic from the above story, found in a flea market last year)</p> 
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<p>A mediocre warehouse worker, a brilliant accountant, and any other person on that matter still cannot produce a robust comprehensive code.</p>
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<p>I will argue that a great programmer can be a mediocre warehouse worker and yet be able to produce robust comprehensive code.</p>
<p>Here is where I think we will be within 3 to 10 years time, lets say AI 2030:</p>
<p>Human generated code will be considered risky and error prone, while AI generated code will be low cost and perfectly executed. We will likely have programming languages adopting to and optimized for AI use, or maybe just for AI use period. To me Elixir seems to be in a good position for this.</p>
<p>The art of the programmer will become to understand problem domains, the possibilities, limits, costs and risks with different solutions, and within that framework make a good solutions, encode high level specifications, adherence to regulations and standards, safety, and so on. I do not believe everyone and anyone suddenly will become great programmers just because the implementation details become more or fully automated.</p>
<p>Knowing what to solve and how to best solve it is more than the code. The purpose is the same as it ever was. The purpose was never to make code for code’s own sake.</p> 
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								<p>I think I’ve identified the core reason I instinctively dislike LLMs.</p>
<p>I strongly value competence. This applies institutionally as well as societally, not just individually. In a competent society, things just work.</p>
<p>You can take a hot shower because there is clean water and flammable gas piped into your home, a device on premise that burns the gas in a safe, controlled way to heat the water, and a sewerage system to carry the dirty water away to be disposed of cleanly. Not to mention the electricity being used to light your home and power the water heater, and the technology that went into building the home in the first place.</p>
<p>Almost none of this you could achieve alone. But you enjoy the benefits of a shared competence. There is an institutional knowledge at work that ensures you can take the benefits of our technological inventions for granted as part of your daily life.</p>
<p>LLMs replace this hard-earned institutional competence with statistical guesses - a literally incompetent imitation.</p>
<p>Of course, nobody can use an LLM to build a hot shower. But what if the people at the water company stopped knowing authoritatively how to purify water, and instead relied on an LLM? What if they stopped caring about fluid mechanics to get the water safely pumped to your house? What if the producers of the water heater stopped caring about controlled combustion, the sewage company about not dumping sewage into streets and rivers, the electricity company about electrical fundamentals or the builders of your home about solid architectural principles and following through with proven construction practices?</p>
<p>These are the institutional competencies we rely on. LLMs incite individuals to turn not to the institutional knowledge that we have collectively built, but instead to settle for a statistical approximation, eroding the forces that built the shoulders we stand on.</p>
<p>(also <a href="https://adamu.jp/blog/llms_competence_institutional_knowledge" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">blogged</a> a few hours ago)</p> 
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								<p>Good points.</p>
<p>A nuance I think is what the responsible gas company, electricity company and water company specifically hire people they know are competent with formal education and or the certifications to prove it. These days however it seems AI gets “hired” to all kinds of jobs without proof of being competent at all aspects of the job. That is a real problem.</p>
<p>I imagine companies in the businesses above are responsible though for what they do regardless of how they do it. So I would assume those particular ones would be quite hesitant to hire someone or something that does great 95% of the time but 5% of the time burn the house down.</p>
<p>I do expect that ratio to improve beyond humans though. And to the extent AI is used in the mentioned applications I do know AI is used by some to detect and warn about failures before they actually happen. (Based on establishment and continuous observations of normal operations and warnings of changes).</p>
<p>I would not use AI coding for any safety critical or life support application. But for the most part I’m not there, and I like to think those who are do not use AI or have perfect reliable testing. My work would be more in the terms of hanging up a picture, or changing a light bulb.</p>
<p>Then I think we have the angle of LLMs being used by competent people as a multiplier rather than a crutch for incompetent people. I do share your worry about AI just being put to use uncritically in sectors and applications it is not suitable or qualified for. The hype is too real.</p> 
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<p>▸ <em>AI, 2025</em>. Any idiot can now write code.</p>
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<p>At last, it’s my time to shine!</p> 
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								<p>I think this argument rests on a dichotomy that does not hold up to critical scrutiny. On the one side, you have institutional competence, which is rigorous and authoritative. On the other, you have LLMs, which are “statistical guesses” and “incompetent imitators.”</p>
<p>But what is institutional competence, if not consolidated statistical knowledge? Building codes come from observed failure patterns, updated after every collapse. Water treatment standards come from epidemiological data on outbreaks. Medical practice comes from clinical trials, which are literally statistical inference at industrial scale. The shoulders we stand on today are built from statistically-validated patterns, formalized into codes, reviewed by experts and enforced by liability. Distilling LLMs down to “statistical guesses” to contrast them with institutional knowledge treats institutional knowledge as something it isn’t. Because at the end of the day, it is statistics all the way down!</p>
<p>In reality, the difference isn’t the statistical nature of knowledge, but the verification layer around it. For us, this layer includes tests, type systems, linters, code review, CI pipelines, staging environments, error monitoring and post-incident review. These are our building codes. And if anything, the AI era has <em>raised</em> the bar on all of them. Test coverage is no longer optional. Behavioral validation requires significant expansion. Code review hasn’t disappeared, it shifted from “is this line correct” to “does this actually solve the problem”. These are the types of institutional responses to a new tool: absorb it, strengthen the verification layer around it, and end up more robust than before. This is precisely the opposite of erosion.</p>
<p>This actually matches your own scenario, if you look closely. You ask: what would happen if the water company replaced purification expertise with an LLM? But no water treatment engineer is doing that, are they? Professional LLM use in engineering involves drafting, exploring, checking against codes and calculations, routing through existing review and liability structure. The LLM is an input into the verification layer, not a replacement for it. Your scenario describes incompetence <em>using</em> LLMs, not LLMs <em>causing</em> incompetence. And that failure mode predates LLMs.</p>
<p>Ultimately, what you are saying is a new version of the pocket calculator argument. And the encyclopedia argument. And the Wikipedia argument. And the Stack Overflow argument. Each new tool, each new layer of abstraction, got the same treatment: people said it would erode institutional competence by letting practitioners bypass real understanding. In each case, the critics were partially correct about skill atrophy (it is inarguable that we lose skills that we don’t use frequently), but <em>decisively</em> wrong about the net institutional effect. Bridges today are more stable than ever, medicine more effective, drinking water much cleaner, and airplanes dramatically safer. The institutional knowledge didn’t erode at all. Rather, it consolidated into codes, review systems and testing/verification regimes on top of the new layer. It became <em>more durable</em>.</p>
<p>There is a real failure mode in the neighborhood of what you’re describing, which is practitioners using LLMs without a verification layer and treating output as authoritative. This is worth pointing out and worth guarding against. But the remedy is maintaining and strengthening the verification layer, which competent institutions have always done for every new tool and knowledge source.</p> 
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								<p>To add to the above, LLMs are often shunned because they are non-deterministic. Guess what though: so are humans. Carpenters mismeasure, electricians skip steps, plumbers forget clearances or might not tighten rings fully. The building codes, the inspections, the permits, the trade licenses, the liability… that’s the deterministic scaffolding society has built on top of unreliable practitioners. Software is no different, and the framework for dealing with LLM non-determinism already exists. It’s just utilized insufficiently and unevenly - which is becoming apparent now from the wildly different results people report.</p> 
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								<p>What reconciles me to reality, is that LLM used by a person lacking this earned institutional competence, produces crap.</p>
<p>I mean, this institutional competence is still a must. And it will be that way forever (with LLMs.) Because LLM cannot invent anything by design. They could replicate. And I am a huge fan of DRY principle. That “R” I feel like delegating.</p>
<p>The implementation pillars (which are indeed the institutional competence) are still on us. The epoch of wow-indie-ceos will end soon, once they all have all the drawbacks of releasing the non-verified code faced.</p> 
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								<p>Agree 100%. LLM’s are faulty just like us and the code we write.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/engineering-leads-what-are-you-doing-to-stop-the-slop/74851/180">Post #179</a>
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								<p>Right now I like to think they are more faulty than us, and making mistakes at a much much faster rate! Amazing!</p>
<p>The productivity though is really something. The sharp edges not so much. I am even working on three projects while typing this. I will be needing more computers if this continues.</p> 
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