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								<p>I think it is very hard to answer those questions, as the tech is advancing so rapidly, that things I considered good practice 6 months ago, are not important any longer.</p>
<p>But I agree, that hiring might become even more important than before. And having a small, but highly skilled and open-minded team is becoming more and more important, than having sheer man power.</p>
<p>I am struggling myself with preparing good specs for my agents and reviewing the massive amount of code they generate. But I try to keep the issues at bay, by constantly improving my CLAUDE.md files and improving my skills. It does not remove the slop, but it improves the generated code a lot.</p> 
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									<span>Creator of Cure</span>
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<p>I nevertheless stand by my general claim and hypothesis.</p>
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<p>I am not sure there might be any claim seen after correcting the syntax.</p> 
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<p>I am not sure there might be any claim seen after correcting the syntax.</p>
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<p>Okay, I’ll try once more: over time, the practice of writing software has gone from low-level to higher-level languages, and also included platforms (frameworks) which provide more and more layers of aides to developers, and agentic workflows are the next iteration of that.</p> 
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								<p>As someone already pointed out, everyone is trying to navigate this at the same time, but I think core fundamentals still apply. Everything that makes it easier for a human to contribute to a codebase also applies to agents:</p>
<ol>
<li>Rely more on automation (linters, rules, CI checks, tests, etc). Writing custom credo rules is especially powerful to enforce conventions.</li>
<li>Writing down non-obvious conventions and patterns (or preferences), which would also make it easier for an agent to pick those up (something has been historically difficult for teams that rely more on “taste” and “gut feeling”).</li>
<li>Apply the progressive disclosure pattern when organizing code so it’s easier to discover and ensure that things are properly documented (and Elixir makes this really easy, especially if you have documentation with good examples)</li>
<li>Doubling down on accountability. You are still responsible for the code you generate, not the LLM (if something breaks, you should be able to fix it).</li>
</ol>
<p>In other words, give people (or agents) the best tools for them to do their best work. But all of the above also speaks to creating a better harness for the LLM to generate code for you, which goes from properly architecting your solution to everything that comes to maintain that (fighting entropy basically).</p>
<p>People often describe the human work now as being the “quality gate” for LLMs; however, I think the correct mindset is being the “quality road”, meaning you don’t defer making good decisions to the end of the process. So in practice, nothing really changed, except that you iterate much faster than before.</p>
<p>Also, it’s useful to remember that the 10x multiplier in the right hands can also be used to refactor and tidy things, so you have to keep your team accountable as before. All that being said, it’s also important to mention that discovery happens so much faster now that sometimes it might be better to optimize for that instead.</p>
<p><em>PS.: The only point from my list that really concerns me is the 4th one. Now that some companies are pushing for PMs and other non-technical functions to produce code, it creates an inbalance on the trust dynamic because they can’t verify it, which hurts accountability on many levels.</em></p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/tyson/48/33194_2.png" class="avatar"> Tyson:</div>
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<p>over time, the practice of writing software has gone from low-level to higher-level languages,</p>
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<p>That’s simply not true, LISP is older than C, COBOL is older than Java, SQL is older than NoSQL.</p>
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<p>and also included platforms (frameworks) which provide more and more layers of aides to developers,</p>
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<p>That’s not true either. Go is younger than Ruby and Python by decades.</p>
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<p>and agentic workflows are the next iteration of that</p>
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<p>And the question “of what” stays.</p> 
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								<p>I agree about the two out of four points you make, but they only cover the style part of code. In my experience, LLMs are perfectly capable of writing code which passes credo checks and follows the project’s existing style and decisions. For example, one of my recent opersource reviews was about <a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/ferricstore-a-durable-redis-compatible-cache/74820" rel="nofollow">FerricStore</a>, a database for caching written by non-elixir engineer. No special CI, no custom credo, all generated. And it contains perfectly readable code with a good style. Of course, there is a room for improvement, but style is not the biggest problem of the project. Critical bugs and cheating is.</p>
<p>I don’t understand how to stop LLMs from reinventing things, cheating, making wrong decisions. These are the things which create the most problems, not the style. I am still trying to review every line that coding agent generates, but in the end I just feel like I could’ve wrote these lines myself. Maybe thats the professional deformation, but I learn about the problem more if I write the code than if I review the generated one. I can see a self-reinforcing cycle here: “I generate buggy code → I learn less about the solution → I can’t fix the generated buggy code”, and I can see it in almost every generated opensource project I review. That’s the biggest problem with coding agents I am still trying to understand and solve for myself.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/thiagomajesk/48/31904_2.png" class="avatar"> thiagomajesk:</div>
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<p>Doubling down on accountability</p>
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<p>is the only point I don’t agree with. It is good to have some basic level of accountability, but extra accountability just creates more problems, while bringing very little profit. People don’t make mistakes because they think “Oh, I wont be held accountable for that mistake I just made”, they make them randomly or if they lack some knowledge. Holding an engineer accountable may make them check their solution twice or maybe even write an extra test, but it will also make them more stressed (hence increasing chance of random errors), make them contribute less, offload more work on others and implement conservative solutions instead of new and innovative ones.</p>
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<p>Apply the progressive disclosure pattern when organizing code</p>
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<p>What does that mean? How do you do that? I know only about progressive disclosure as a part of UI/UX design.</p>
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<p>some companies are pushing for PMs and other non-technical functions to produce code</p>
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<p>Thats the first time I hear about it. Can you share any articles or stories about it?</p> 
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<p>We’re also playing with additional bot reviews to catch more and more stuff automatically.</p>
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<p>Was going to ask if anyone was leaning into developing a Review Agent. Not to replace human verification, but to try filter out some of the slop before it gets to final review. LLMs seem quite good at pointing out gaps/flaws in existing work, even when they were the original author.</p> 
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								<p>If I were managing your team I would focus on:</p>
<ol>
<li>Credo.</li>
<li>hooks requiring passing tests on-<em>push</em> not just merge. Bad ai-generated code may have “tumor” behavior because it occupies part of the context that informs what the neural net writes next. Requiring passing test on push excises the tumor before it grows.</li>
<li>Where applicable, property-based testing. Property-based tests cannot ve overfitted to because they enforce invariants. In the right context, property based testing is the holy water to the vampire of AI slop.</li>
<li>Documentation, meaning documentation both for humans and AI. If Claude Code is working in your repo, a decent README.MD explaining architecture is worth having in the root directory and in Claude’s context window. A note in there explaining that your project uses Rust NIFs for pdf parsing might be what makes Claude actually call the NIFs instead of just stubbing out parse_pdf/1 and leaving a note asking for implementation.</li>
<li>Finally, not all solutions are technical. Do your juniors understand that, for unique and novel solutions, the best AI can do is approach the solution asymptotically? Are they aware that senior developers who estimate a 40% speed increase with AI were found to have actually SLOWED by 20%? Do they understand the difference between speed and velocity; that repeatedly prompting Ai past a certain point without opening your editor is like driving around a beltway really fast hut never actually taking an exit?f</li>
</ol>
<p>EDIT: in case anyone besides <a class="mention" href="/u/yoavgeva" rel="nofollow">@yoavgeva</a> wants the source on the 20% figure: <a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/2507.09089" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Measuring the Impact of Early-2025 AI on Experienced Open-Source Developer Productivity</a></p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/thiagomajesk/48/31904_2.png" class="avatar"> thiagomajesk:</div>
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<p>PS.: The only point from my list that really concerns me is the 4th one. Now that some companies are pushing for PMs and other non-technical functions to produce code, it creates an inbalance on the trust dynamic because they can’t verify it, which hurts accountability on many levels.</p>
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<p>The thing about this is that this mentally is applying to many programmers, somewhat akin to the “I’m not longer a programmer, I’m a manager” mentality.  While probably everyone in this discussion would consider themselves craftspeople who care about code-quality, many, <em>many</em> employed developers with senior positions don’t.  They are eating up the directions from the LLM companies that “coding is over, there is no need to read it, just give instructions.”  I know of at least one big company that is ok with their engineers doing this (well, I know two if I include Anthropic <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/upside_down_face.png?v=15" title=":upside_down_face:" class="emoji" alt=":upside_down_face:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">).</p>
<p>So from the standpoint of the topic of this thread, I think it’s going to be very hard to control this type of behaviour other than being more upfront in the hiring process.  Companies are already donig this.  I was denied a job a couple of weeks ago with one of the cited reasons that I wasn’t excited enough about AI.</p>
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<p>To keep my response tied to the OP, my prediction is that we are going to lose this battle, and quickly. I think that in the next 6-12 months, many many dev teams will abandon their pride in the “old” craft and embrace the speed at which new features can be shipped. I’m not saying I endorse this shift.</p>
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<p>So long as we are using LLMs to produce code as we know it today I don’t necessarily see it as a losing battle.  I think there will be some companies who continue to care about code quality and some who don’t.  I think far more won’t because <em>so</em> many <em>developers</em> already didn’t care about it (this is easy to see if you spend any time reading the orange or red websites).</p> 
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								<p>Ouch, I’ve been participating in this thread and I didn’t bother to answer the very question in the title. Beg your pardon, here I go.</p>
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<p>Engineering leads, what are you doing to stop the slop?</p>
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<p>Uhm, well, nothing special.</p>
<p>We have a prominent peer review process, we have dozens of custom credo checks for our needs.</p>
<p>And, the most important thing, the coding assistants might <em>speed up</em> the code writing process, but not <em>enhance it</em>. That said, the assistant might produce a better code, a worse code, a slop code, exactly as an average developer. Delivering shitty code results in punishment of the developer though, no matter who the hell assisted them.</p> 
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