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                  mudasobwa
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									<span>Creator of Cure</span>
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								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="dimitarvp" data-post="11" data-topic="76590">
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>we could do with PBTs today?</p>
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<p>PBT were introduced by John Hughes and Co° back in 1993, I am not sure how “today” is better than 20 years ago on that matter. And no, PBT cannot prove anything. Once again, consider currency exchange. 200 currencies. 40K pairs. For some the rate is to be calculated through crossing. For one combination it’s failing. THere is no way on the Earth one come up with tests to cover this particular case.</p>
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<p>hook up to your own test suite</p>
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<p>It’s not a test suite per se (although it could be.) Cure just produces BEAMs so it stays in the compilation chain. Lean4 is something one is to run ad-hoc.</p> 
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								<p>Maybe you are to find this example to be more self-explanatory. Finite automata driving the order. What tests should be written to prove that the order cannot get to “deliver” state without being paid?</p> 
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<p>What tests should be written to prove that the order cannot get to “deliver” state without being paid?</p>
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<p>We can write tests just fine (integration test asserting on multiple states in the DB and/or other systems) but they are bespoke and don’t lean (heh) on a formalised DSL – if that’s your angle?</p>
<p>And sure, FSM is a great way to model it.</p> 
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<p>they are bespoke and don’t lean</p>
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<p>There is no “my angle.” That’s how math works. One cannot prove that there is infinite number of primes by brute force. Tests are brute force. One can polish tests and make them property-based, and make sure mutant takes its place, and whatnot, but tests are still a brute force.</p>
<p>Under some circumstances, that’s fine. Even more, there are tons of my own code not covered with tests, because it’d be a waste of time, I can write a non-blocking <code>gen_server</code>, I don’t need tests for that.</p>
<p>But sometimes the price of the error would be too high. In that case one might risk or prove. Tests in such situation are taking risk. I am not saying that’s bad. But that surely must be understood.</p> 
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<p>But sometimes the price of the error would be too high. In that case one might risk or prove. Tests in such situation are taking risk. I am not saying that’s bad. But that surely must be understood.</p>
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<p>It is understood and I agree, hence my curiosity. Any good sources for an intro, truly beginner level, on Lean 4?</p>
<p>My math is quite rusty but I was always naturally good at it – I’ll catch up.</p> 
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								<p>Uhm. Their website? <a href="https://lean-lang.org/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://lean-lang.org/</a></p> 
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								<p>Thanks for sharing reporting your experience.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/preciz/48/41086_2.png" class="avatar"> preciz:</div>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>Lean 4 formalization:</strong></p>
<p>I would do something like this:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>/goal Fully formalize module N of this Elixir codebase in a new formalization/ dir with the Lean 4 theorem prover.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Then it goes to work for a long time (it probably never finishes), but while the main thread is running, I’m using the <code>/btw</code> command to ask questions about the code based on the formalization.</p>
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</aside>
<p>Did you research or build anything to help the Elixir/Erlang-to-Lean 4 conversion, or does it seem perhaps irrelevant?</p>
<p>I read there are some tools, e.g. Rust-&gt;Lean with Aeneas and Python-&gt;Lean with xpile.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to have a shared base for the Erlang and Elixir stdlibs.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/rhcarvalho/48/32243_2.png" class="avatar"> rhcarvalho:</div>
<blockquote>
<p>Did you research or build anything to help the Elixir/Erlang-to-Lean 4 conversion, or does it seem perhaps irrelevant?</p>
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<p>I’m sure it’s relevant. For now I only use these tools to then manually verify issues found with them.</p>
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<blockquote>
<p>It would be interesting to have a shared base for the Erlang and Elixir stdlibs.</p>
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</aside>
<p>Seems like a great idea and a logical continuation of where things are heading.</p> 
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								<p>Just as an ending thought for this thread (screenshot below if you don’t want to open):<br>
<a href="https://x.com/bcherny/status/2102543349102338309?s=20" class="onebox" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://x.com/bcherny/status/2102543349102338309?s=20</a></p>
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								<p>One of my favorites is to have Credo as a push hook. I find that, for complex tasks, the agent frequently exceeds Credo’s recommended degree of cyclomatic complexity. If you specify to the agent that Credo must pass, it will refactor to make the code simpler.</p>
<p>Credo, in general, is good for slop prevention as a push hook because it forces good styling. This has the added benefit of making the code more readable. Reviewing hundreds of lines of AI-generated code is significantly less painful when you have guardrails to keep it from being totally hideous.</p> 
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