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								<p>Nice to see other devs are also feeling this weird gaslighting from the industry. Well, not nice actually cause I wouldn’t wish this feeling on my worst enemies, but commiseration can help us cope. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">  Our industry has always valued quantity over quality, and the promise of shipping even more crappy code even faster must be incredibly tantalizing to tech industry executives. There are ofc great uses of AI for devs that know how to handle it, but the thing that I don’t get about general arguments in favor of AI is that it promises to ship 100x faster or whatever, but all the problems our industry had prior to AI were caused by the fact that we were already shipping way too much code way too fast. It’s kind of like having a really bad itch on your arm, and then rubbing poison ivy on it to make it better. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/person_shrugging.png?v=15" title=":person_shrugging:" class="emoji" alt=":person_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>As for how to deal with the mental toll all this takes, I strongly recommend finding a hobby that is completely unrelated to technology. Someone else already mentioned getting outside more often, and that’s good if your an outside kind of person, but most of us in this field aren’t, and although it is healthy to go outside regularly and we should all do it, it’s not therapeutic for everyone, so won’t necessarily help with this kind of thing.</p>
<p>Personally, I play trading card games. Going to the local game store and playing a physical card game every week has been very beneficial for my stress levels with work recently. I think deckbuilding and the mathematical gameplay of TCGs satisfies the same parts of my brain that love programming and creative problem solving, and it’s also a social activity that doesn’t involve typing into a computer or pushing buttons on a controller. Anything that can get you out of the house regularly for a semi-social event that isn’t focused on or significantly reliant on technology is good to explore I think. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Cheers!</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/jeremyjh/48/5995_2.png" class="avatar"> jeremyjh:</div>
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<p>My point here is that models can learn from self-play. If models can become embodied - in a robotic interface - where it can explore the world, try to do things, fail, learn from that and try again - then they could actually begin building meaningful world models.</p>
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<p>Funny how we only seem to get closer to designing human-like intelligence by giving it human-like traits, e.g. embodiment…</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/jam/48/36266_2.png" class="avatar"> jam:</div>
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<p>Came across this and curious to hear what y’all think.</p>
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<p>I was too lazy to read all of it but got an AI to summarise it - it confirmed my suspicions, that it (the advice in it) was impractical as you’d need to be extremely disciplined. Anyway, what as more interesting to me was the disparity in number of respondents so I asked the AI…</p>
<p>Pasted what it said in our AI Conversations section: <a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/asked-ai-a-casual-question-about-language-forum-disparity-heres-what-it-said/76824" rel="nofollow">https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/asked-ai-a-casual-question-about-language-forum-disparity-heres-what-it-said/76824</a></p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/astonj/48/15_2.png" class="avatar"> AstonJ:</div>
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<p>(the advice in it) was impractical as you’d need to be extremely disciplined</p>
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<p>Maybe. I could see it working pretty well on small teams. Seems like there could be a sweet spot where humans write some code and LLMs write some based on the established patterns but mostly accelerate other areas.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/jam/48/36266_2.png" class="avatar"> jam:</div>
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<p>Came across this and curious to hear what y’all think.</p>
<p><a href="https://discourse.haskell.org/t/how-to-keep-enjoying-programming-in-a-world-of-llms/14705" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">How to keep enjoying programming in a world of LLMs - Uncategorized - Haskell Community</a></p>
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<p>It hurts me to say this but I think Haskell is far less relevant in the post-LLM world. I agree with the author that Haskell is fun to write - but that has always been the problem with it. It is much more fun to write than it is to read.</p>
<p>Haskell was addicting to me. So elegant, and it really was very true what the say - if it compiles it probably works. Even before language server standard it had basically <a href="https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hdevtools-0.1.0.4" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">the same thing</a> in emacs, and it could typecheck instantly after every keypress. What is <em>definitely</em> true is that refactoring was absolutely painless because by the time your tests were compiling again they were passing as well, at least 99% of the time. So - you can refactor endlessly. There is always a more expressive way to say the same thing. Also another invariant you can capture in your types. Always another points-free expression you can compose.</p>
<p>So, I <em>get</em> it, what he’s saying. But if you are serious about building working software, almost anything else is better. I did not enjoy Elixir as much, but I got way more done with it when I switched back. There is no way I’d use Haskell today. In the post-LLM world, the simpler the better, and the more consistently the agent applies typical idioms the better. Elixir already had basically a super-power in this regard - almost all Elixir code looks familiar to everyone, a lot fewer competing libraries, frameworks and styles. Everything the models have trained on looked the same.</p> 
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								<p>For sure. I thought the post was interesting from the perspective of leveraging LLMs in a way that doesn’t lead to “hating programming” or black box management. I have no interest in Haskell or other languages really. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slightly_smiling_face.png?v=15" title=":slightly_smiling_face:" class="emoji" alt=":slightly_smiling_face:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> Though I could see where zig / rust would be useful on occasion.</p> 
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								<p>I think coding is having its social media moment.</p>
<p>Journalism used to have a pretty high barrier to entry. You spent years learning the job, building expertise and reputation, and only a relatively small number of people had access to publishing.</p>
<p>Then the internet came along and suddenly everybody could publish. Blogs, YouTube, Twitter, whatever. Journalism didn’t disappear, but the economics changed. Now we are competing with millions of people for attention, and a lot of the incentive became publish faster, get clicks, keep people engaged.</p>
<p>I think AI is doing something similar to coding.</p>
<p>Writing code used to be the scarce part. Now anyone can generate a lot of code very quickly. That doesn’t make engineering useless, but it changes where the value is.</p>
<p>The hard part is becoming deciding what to build, knowing whether the generated code is any good, reviewing it, testing it, understanding the tradeoffs, and being the person responsible when it breaks.</p>
<p>So yeah, I understand why this feels bad to us who spent decades mastering the craft. The craft is not disappearing, but the thing we were proud of being hard is becoming cheap.</p> 
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								<p>I don’t think your analogy is sound. I started working professionally as a developer in 2015 and up until around 2022 everybody and their sister could become developers if they wanted to. The industry filled itself with people who have no idea what they’re doing. My point is, we’re past the stage you’re talking about.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/martosaur/48/41071_2.png" class="avatar"> martosaur:</div>
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<p>You’re spot on about team relationships. Coding was definitely a social activity for me and this aspect was disrupted by LLMs. I’m working on a longer form blog post exploring exactly this aspect</p>
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<p>I finally finished my piece, so I thought I’d share it here since it might be interesting to folks. <a href="https://distantprovince.substack.com/p/the-four-horsemen-of-agentic-coding" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">The Four Horsemen of Agentic Coding - by Alex Martsinovich</a></p> 
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								<p>Nice write up. Thanks for sharing. I know you ended with</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I have no idea what to do with any of this</p>
</blockquote>
<p>but curious how you’re avoiding deskilling in particular?</p> 
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