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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>I entered this industry because I loved figuring things out and <em>writing programs</em> since getting a C64 and then Atari ST as a teen in the 1990s.</p>
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<p>I’m of a similar, maybe slightly older, vintage as you having started in the mid 1980s on a VIC-20, then the C-64 (though I had access to Atari 400/800 and Apple ][+).  And I loved programming back then… BBS software and admittedly simple games.  Writing programs was liberating and taught me some ways to think about how things piece together that I’m not sure I would have learned as early or as well otherwise.  I founded local a computer club, did a little hacking (ok, maybe a lot), found peers locally and across the country all before “the internet” was readily available to retail consumers.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>Because of my personal experience, I assumed most other programmers got into it for similar reasons. But that assumption was completely invalidated when ChatGPT and then Copilot and Claude arrived on the scene, and it appeared a large majority of programmers went “oh thank God, I never have to write another line of code… how I have hated this boring, pointless chore!”.</p>
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<p>I like that today I don’t write as much code and more that I can get certain tasks done that I simply would have avoided in the past because they were beyond my skill or domain knowledge.  But when you look back at that history you need to recognize that what programmers did and even what a programmer is hasn’t been static until LLMs showed up.  Back in the C-64 days, I could understand the entire machine: the manual that was included in the box not only told you how to turn it on, but also had a programming guide with addressable system functions and even a schematic diagram of the computer.  Back then my programming didn’t have anything to do with what I would have considered “boilerplate”… hell, there wasn’t room for it.  And for awhile new computers simply meant more powerful versions of that same model… you could get more done, faster, while keeping that whole-machine model inside your head.</p>
<p>At some point though programming became increasingly about layering abstractions on top of ever deeper abstractions.  Sure, back in the old days we had BASIC which was an abstraction, and even Assembly wasn’t pure machine code, but it only strayed so far from what the electronics could do: it was very different.  Today which abstractions are chosen (language, libraries, frameworks) and how to use them “correctly” injects a level of “fashion sense”, disconnected from the colder, logical world of the original home computers.  The social interactions evolved, too, from mostly sharing tips on how I solved a certain challenge in -my- program with others writing different programs to now having to collaborate with others with competing visions in how to write the same program.  Programming evolved to become about accessing other’s abstractions much more than engaging with my own abstract thinking over the machine.</p>
<p>Hell, even MIT doesn’t teach SICP anymore because the nature of what a programmer does, and even who a programmer is, changed.  And all of this before LLMs arrived on the scene.</p>
<p>So there are certain programming tasks today that I very much enjoy.  But so much of it is just trying to coax a library or framework into doing what I want… and having that go many layers deep, that it can be more frustrating than enjoyable.  So I completely understand the desire to have the LLMs, which, machine qua machine, are better equipped to deal with the degree of library-trivia we need to know than we humans are, do much of this dealing with programming tasks today.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>I’d agree with your assessment that these very-good-plausible-text-predictors are fundamentally not capable of AGI since they have no underlying models of <em>anything</em> other than “what token is likely to appear next”. There is clearly some emergent effect that enables it to produce convincing, even sometimes useful but mostly mediocre results for people, but it doesn’t manipulate any explicit models or learn anything.</p>
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<p>I think this is on the right track overall, but I think overemphasizing “the stochastic parrot” aspect undersells what capabilities actually exist in misleading ways.  For example, it use to be that LLMs would use that token generation process to answer calculated answers and not do very well: now they’ll typically write a program in python which calculate the answers.  In the end I find that the most recent results can be much better than mediocre.  Not all the time, not without good guidance… but consistently enough that I absolutely include LLMs in my toolkit and I pay much attention how best to use them.</p>
<p>Just over a week ago, I had a 4 hour training session I had to conduct for 25 supply chain professionals concerning automated inventory replenishment tools and my slide deck needed work still the morning of the presentation.  So early that morning I jump into the self-driving taxi that’s taking me to the airport, fire up the laptop and my mobile hot spot… the car already knew to stream my work-music playlist… and finish it up.  Finishing it up meant having my coding LLM (Claude) verify certain facts and assertions that I was making in the presentation, or facts I hadn’t yet added to the presentation, and giving me back plain English descriptions/verifications/or corrections.  I would then hand that off to CoPilot which could manipulate the power point directly while keeping good style and such.  The LLMs did this work very well, with guidance, but very well.  Of course the car wasn’t an LLM, but it got me to the airport on time, without distraction and provided a smooth ride to boot.  It felt like “living in the future”, and it felt good with new opportunities waiting.</p>
<p>I found the video below to be a really compelling and fair take, along the lines you’re taking, on understanding the bigger picture of LLMs which (interview with Gary Marcus, cognitive scientist/professor emeritus NYU/founder of machine learning company Geometric Intelligence):</p>
<div class="youtube-onebox lazy-video-container" data-video-id="iFYF_e1GSGI" data-video-title="The Uncomfortable Truth About AI “Reasoning” | World Science Festival" data-video-start-time="" data-video-list-id="" data-provider-name="youtube">
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<p>In the end I guess I’d say that I do pay attention to how LLMs are changing my role and I don’t look at that change as either good or bad: just unavoidable.  The kind of programming I loved, and the people I was social with in that endeavor, became something very different (for the most part) long before LLMs, so I don’t get depressed over that loss,  I find some trepidation over feeling that I haven’t yet figured out my correct role, but I can see some new, compelling paths forward, paths that might not have been open to me without LLMs, so there’s some hope, too.</p>
<p>But I’m definitely still figuring it all out.   The key is not fear it… that’s not a winning strategy… not try to stop it… I’m pretty convinced that battle is already lost… it’s recognize what it is, what it isn’t, and how it’s evolving and respond appropriately.</p> 
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								<p>What a breeze to find fellow <a href="https://anthonymoser.github.io/writing/ai/haterdom/2025/08/26/i-am-an-ai-hater.html" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">AI haters </a>in this space.</p>
<p>What I find most depressing and worrisome is the authoritarian aura around the theme (“get on board, or get left behind”, yadayada, you know the drill).</p>
<p>I mean, my problems are with the technology itself, not with its users. I do understand that so many people like and want to use it (ethical, social, economical, technical and environmental issues aside), but in a large and diverse world like ours it <em>should</em> be alternatives to whom do <em>want</em> to get left behind by this wagon, right?</p>
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<p>I just can’t trust any codebase that has been exposed to LLM-generated code.</p>
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<p>Yeah, I too try to minimize as much as possible my exposure, but it gets so exhausting sometimes. I’ve progressively moving to projects that have an explicit anti-AI policy like <a href="https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/AI_policy" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Gentoo</a>, <a href="https://drewdevault.com/blog/Forking-vim/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">vim-classic</a>, and following the discussions on <a href="https://human-emacs.org/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Human Emacs</a>, but do not feel read to leave Linux itself yet.</p>
<p>How do you (who think and feel something similar) are managing the storm? Especially, anyone knows about some group, forum, subforum or project dedicated to a human crafting in the Elixir sphere (although I get that the codebase itself is tainted)?</p> 
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<p>How do you (who think and feel something similar) are managing the storm?</p>
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<p>What is a “storm” in this instance, exactly?</p> 
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<p>Yeah, I too try to minimize as much as possible my exposure, but it gets so exhausting sometimes. I’ve progressively moving to projects that have an explicit anti-AI policy like <a href="https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/AI_policy" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Gentoo</a>, <a href="https://drewdevault.com/blog/Forking-vim/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">vim-classic</a>, and following the discussions on <a href="https://human-emacs.org/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Human Emacs</a>, but do not feel read to leave Linux itself yet.</p>
<p>How do you (who think and feel something similar) are managing the storm? Especially, anyone knows about some group, forum, subforum or project dedicated to a human crafting in the Elixir sphere (although I get that the codebase itself is tainted)?</p>
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<p>It is nice to know I’m not alone and completely crazy (or, at least there are other crazy people) in feeling this <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes.png?v=15" title=":grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:" class="emoji" alt=":grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Managing the storm has been difficult – when I heard all the “there’s no going back, get on board or get left behind” people cheering on the death of thinking for yourself, that was depressing, until I accepted that I’m actually fine with being left behind. Of course, this severely limits my career opportunities since I’ve turned down a few employers at the interview stage when it became clear they mandated LLM-driven development.</p>
<p>I’m using <a href="https://codeberg.org/NerdNextDoor/evi" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">evi</a> and have found some solidarity and alternative non-slopped apps / libraries / language implementations in the <a href="https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">open-slopware list</a>. There are a few non-LLM programming communities here and there; particularly in the realms of Zig, Scheme and Clojure for some reason (see Rich Hickey’s <a href="https://gist.github.com/richhickey/ea94e3741ff0a4e3af55b9fe6287887f" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">“Thanks, AI!” letter</a>). Not sure why that didn’t happen for Elixir, but I guess the community is more focused on market share and other pragmatic concerns. I don’t blame them of course; they’re making choices that make sense for them.</p> 
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<p>Elixir which has been utterly infested with LLM commits for a while</p>
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<p>Curious, do you believe these commits are bad or is it simply that they are LLM generated which bothers you? I assume Jose would hold a high quality bar to avoid slop.</p> 
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<p>Curious, do you believe these commits are bad or is it simply that they are LLM generated which bothers you? I assume Jose would hold a high quality bar to avoid slop.</p>
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<p>I have no doubt Jose and the rest of the team hold a high bar and will do their best. But nobody is immune to the effects of continued bombardment of slop PRs: after a while, they won’t be able to deeply, properly review and understand all of the new code, and things might accidentally slip in that result in serious vulnerabilities.</p>
<p>Even apart from that though, I just don’t want to use something that is more and more built by a technology that I think is bad for society and <em>extremely</em> bad for the field of software engineering, to the point where people see no point in studying computer science anymore.</p> 
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                  gregoriomiranda
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>What is a “storm” in this instance, exactly?</p>
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<p>For me, it’s basically not being able to find a single job position in which I can work and do what I love to do without having to use LLMs.<br>
<small>(please, notice that I don’t expect you to <em>agree</em> with me, I’m just answering why <em>I</em> see the current situation as a storm.) </small></p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>It is nice to know I’m not alone and completely crazy (or, at least there are other crazy people) in feeling this <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes.png?v=15" title=":grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:" class="emoji" alt=":grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>hahaha, yes! It’s always a pleasure to find people like-minded, that’s why I asked about projects and spaces. I feel that you need urgently to build more and stronger communities to make sense of this firehosing of bs. In my case, I found something like this on Ḿastodon, there are nice ppl and discussions happening there. <a href="https://thecon.ai/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Emily Bender</a> itself post there, it’s always a delight.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>Of course, this severely limits my career opportunities since I’ve turned down a few employers at the interview stage when it became clear they mandated LLM-driven development.</p>
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<p>Yeah, that’s the whole point for me. I’m in a state of continuously thinking this through: I’m not in a position right now in that I can limit even more the opportunities, not in this market, but I do plan ahead to find a place of sanity: become a public servant, come back to academia or even open a consulting bs or something like that. These FLOSS projects that dare to oppose the hype are quite an inspiration.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>see Rich Hickey’s <a href="https://gist.github.com/richhickey/ea94e3741ff0a4e3af55b9fe6287887f" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">“Thanks, AI!” letter</a></p>
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<p>Lovely! Nice, one more drop of sanity to the list.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/gregoriomiranda/48/41121_2.png" class="avatar"> gregoriomiranda:</div>
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<p>For me, it’s basically not being able to find a single job position in which I can work and do what I love to do without having to use LLMs.</p>
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<p>Thanks for clarifying.</p>
<p>From what I can see without actively looking for job right now: yes, it’s tough, and people are DM’ing and telling me that as well, which does sadden me even more as it hammers it home how real and harsh this current reality is.</p>
<p>IMO LLMs are not as all and universally bad as you and <a class="mention" href="/u/desty" rel="nofollow">@Desty</a> are making them sound. As others have said, fighting to find the exact incantation to make my idea work with a particular framework is not honing my skills or getting better at what I do.</p>
<p>I believe all of us here would agree that the thinking process and trying to enlist various tools and mental models and algorithms is more valuable than forever honing your mechanical skills, no? They have their place but after you master swinging the sword exactly the right way in every position, from then on it becomes pointless to keep repeating that forever.</p>
<p>(Which is why I wouldn’t mourn me forgetting how to use Neovim in 5-10 years, not too much anyway.)</p>
<p>The real problem as usual are the people: stakeholders and businessmen under the pleasant illusion that they no longer need people. I bet such tremors happened during the industrial revolution or similar events and I honestly don’t want to think what do countless families go through. IMO the craziness will end at one point but… Interim periods suck. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/confused.png?v=15" title=":confused:" class="emoji" alt=":confused:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Moral and ethical concerns I fully stand behind but it should be obvious at this point that no big business people in history ever took those to heart.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>I believe all of us here would agree that the thinking process and trying to enlist various tools and mental models and algorithms is more valuable than forever honing your mechanical skills, no? They have their place but after you master swinging the sword exactly the right way in every position, from then on it becomes pointless to keep repeating that forever.</p>
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<p>I think here you conflated 2 concepts together:</p>
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<li>diminishing return in getting better with said tool</li>
<li>forced deprecation of said tool before one has the chance to reach into the diminishing return territory.</li>
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<p>1 is natural for any profession, while 2 is unfortunate for the professionals.</p> 
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								<p>True, I did not cover people seeking to enter the profession. I got no good advice for them except “LLMs are to be used after you become sufficiently good doing the thing manually, and never before that”.</p>
<p>Though I am not seeing forced deprecation per se – what did you mean by that?</p> 
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