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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/cmkarlsson/48/23000_2.png" class="avatar"> cmkarlsson:</div>
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<p>I’ve seen a tendency in elixir that people prefer to include services in their own supervision tree and in my opinion its sort of a slippery slope to coupling. I also think it makes it harder to trouble-shoot in production.</p>
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<p>Minor caveat: library OTP apps don’t have a supervision tree, but are just modules ready to be called when necessary.</p>
<p>I’m of two minds on managing supervision trees. Yes, I like the idea of something pre-baked out of a dependent app and ready to go all at once just by adding it to <code>deps</code>. OTOH, configuring it can be a nightmare. I wonder if there’s a middle ground where the dependent app provides the hook to a whole (complex) supervision tree, but the host app manages config and starts up that whole sub-tree with explicit config under its supervision tree. I need more hands-on experience to have a strong opinion in this area, but that is the way I lean right now.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/discussion-dont-add-a-database-layer-to-your-phoenix-application/8623/73">Post #72</a>
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								<p>I think there are so many interesting ways to manage persistence, some enabled by the BEAM and some less so, that it makes a lot of sense to extract the database layer from the web layer. A concept I am currently looking into is <a href="https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/orleans-virtual-actors/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">virtual actors</a>.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/gregvaughn/48/954_2.png" class="avatar"> gregvaughn:</div>
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<p>At one point Phoenix appeared to be Rails++ and some of us encouraged <a class="mention" href="/u/chrismccord" rel="nofollow">@chrismccord</a> to aim higher due to what the BEAM offers</p>
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<p>I’ve been following this thread with interest and this comment summed up a lot of what I think. Simply by starting with the a SQL database as a default phoenix is quite railsy on the whole spectrum of possible Elixir applications. However I don’t want to dwell on that point. The whole spectrum of possible Elixir applications is enormous.</p>
<p>What I do believe is that a healthy ecosystem has multiple projects that are tackling similar problems. It is why I continue to work on my alternatives to Cowboy, plug and phoenix (I have linked to them before so don’t need to here). For context at work I have an application that is using cowboy, plug and phoenix and it is working very well.</p>
<p>Where Phoenix can choose productivity by reusing concepts and conventions familiar to many developers an alternative can through away familiarity and explore the alternative further. A single project can never really optimise for approachability and innovation.</p>
<p>To answer the original question to this thread. I think with phoneix as it is now; using the <code>--no-ecto</code> flag and immediately adding ecto to a sister application within an umbrella is a nice idea but probably not worth it on day 1 of a new project.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/discussion-dont-add-a-database-layer-to-your-phoenix-application/8623/74">Post #73</a>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/crowdhailer/48/2438_2.png" class="avatar"> Crowdhailer:</div>
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<p>using the --no-ecto flag and immediately adding ecto to a sister application</p>
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<p>This is precisely what the two new generators do:</p>
<p><code>mix phx.new.web</code></p>
<p>and</p>
<p><code>mix phx.new.ecto</code></p>
<p>Just create umbrella app, <code>cd apps/</code> and run these and you’re set.</p> 
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								<p>Or even in just one step with</p>
<pre><code>mix phx.new --umbrella
</code></pre> 
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<p>mix phx.new.ecto</p>
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<p>Is phoenix still describing itself as just a “web layer”? Here is a generator that looks like it generates nothing for the web, I assume?<br>
Thanks anyway, I did not know about the new generators and will look into them a little further before commenting any more</p> 
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								<p>I don’t know how it describes itself, but this is generator from Phoenix, that does generate a pure Elixir app with Ecto dependency. There is no dependency on anything Phoenixy in it.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/crowdhailer/48/2438_2.png" class="avatar"> Crowdhailer:</div>
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<p>Is phoenix still describing itself as just a “web layer”? Here is a generator that looks like it generates nothing for the web, I assume?</p>
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<p>In his course PragDave describes it as “more than a web framework” - in fact he starts the section by saying what Phoenix is <em>not</em>. “I don’t believe Phoenix is a web framework - it’s way more than that” <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6c3193d1dd46244da3c8c6f719c9f5e2abdd5ae8.gif?v=15" title=":003:" class="emoji emoji-custom" alt=":003:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>This topic is amazing.</p>
<p>A few things i’ve noticed:</p>
<p>People are taking architectural patterns (microservices/onedbper/etc) that were devised in the context of another system language and interpreting them as if they could be mapped into erlang/elixir.</p>
<p>I contend that BEAM is better thought of as an Operating System environment than being mapped to the UNIX context of system design ( ie: using JVM or GO to ammend the operating system and provide additional layers of abstraction)</p>
<p>In BEAM we are given the tools of an Operating System - Processes, Message, Monitors , etc and in that context we are also given the capability to abstract, layer and isolate our processes and services inside a distributed operating system.</p>
<p>I establish that it’s essential to understand the difference between the container and the content when looking at patterns that have been established for other languages and systems - and the same step is necessary when developing in Elixir Erlang.</p>
<p>I’m saying this because in all my other language and system development experience - having an operating system that is actually working to keep your code running as fast as possible - with as much resources as required - while maintaining a variety of system invariants is <strong>alternative</strong> to the design of the timeshare unix OS.</p>
<p>Amazing! Here we have an distributed operating system who’s natural building blocks are modules, OTP applications and processes.</p>
<p>Part of the richness of Erlang/Elixir is exactly this and so it behooves us to help guide new and burgeoning developers into the richness and differences of this platform.</p>
<p>The work that PragDave is suggesting to his students is an essential part of this.</p>
<p>Instead of citing patterns that were designed with other constraints in mind - start to discover the new (old) frontier that BEAM is offering!</p>
<p>This could mean discovering effective ways to group and organize code around a cluster, composing and isolate various services inside the context of the language.</p>
<p>Instead of having to fall back and forth between the context of the external timeshare OS and the semantics of a shared memory timeshare process (like a go microservice)  that is being externally co-ordinated around other timeshare OS processes  ( like a database process ) using a scheduler that is based on the general approach that the machine must be protected from the processes - the OS knows nothing of the critical nature between it’s two processes ( aside what a devop might instruct via runit or it’s cousins)</p>
<p>The BEAM approach is that the ‘OS’ should protect it’s processes, deal with faults and return itself to a known state - where the known state is it’s particualr software and not - in the case of timeshare-os - default form designed to generally run various processes.</p>
<p>This is what makes me excited about erlang/elixir.</p>
<p>Glad for the conversation!</p>
<p>Best,<br>
Curtis RobotArmy</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/astonj/48/15_2.png" class="avatar"> AstonJ:</div>
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<p>So on app creation a --simple</p>
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<p>It would be awesome if <a href="https://github.com/pragdave/mix_generator" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">this</a> tool gained some traction.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/discussion-dont-add-a-database-layer-to-your-phoenix-application/8623/81">Post #80</a>
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                  jmurphyweb
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								<p><a class="mention" href="/u/overminddl1" rel="nofollow">@OvermindDL1</a> this was an old thread, but your structure sounds interesting and something I’d love to take a look at.</p>
<p>Do you have any open-source projects / blog-posts containing this structure?</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/discussion-dont-add-a-database-layer-to-your-phoenix-application/8623/83">Post #82</a>
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