anshul_yadav
How do you think about time complexity while working with Elixir and other Declarative languages?
I learned C/C++ in college before learning about Algorithms. And thinking about time complexity in C/C++ came naturally to me because I had a clear mental model of what the computer was doing.
I have been using Elixir and other functional languages these days. I am excited by their promises. Functional languages can be thought as a subset of the declarative class of languages. Unlike procedural languages like C/C++, we don’t tell the computer what steps to follow. We just tell it what is expected to happen.
Since my first introduction to SQL, I have not been able to be build an intuition about how long a particular query will take. You just write the query and the computer somehow gives you the result. Even when I try to think about the time complexity of a query, I end up thinking procedurally. I ask questions like, “What steps will the computer take to return me the result of this query?” This way, I am not able to think in SQL to talk about time complexity. I am still thinking in C/C++.
I face the same problem with Elixir. While asking a question about the time complexity of a function, I am thinking procedurally instead of thinking functionally.
How do you deal with this problem? Is there no way to think about time complexity natively in Elixir, SQL, etc. or am I missing something?
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jhogberg
The irony is that those languages are declarative, too, if we’re being pedantic. You’re not telling the computer what steps to follow, you’re telling the compiler what effects you want to have on the C/C++ abstract machine which is very much different from what the CPU will execute (mainly by the “as-if” rule).
C++ defines a program’s observable behavior as its interactions with
volatileand library I/O functions, allowing any optimization that does not change those interactions (including their order). The compiler is thus free to rewrite your Bubble sort as a Merge sort if it were to somehow recognize that pattern, and for simple patterns (e.g. something that looks like amemcpyormemset) it often does. In fact there have been many security issues arising from the fact that the compiler has optimized away amemsetthat lacked an observable effect as defined by the standard, necessitating functions likeexplicit_bzeroto get around that.In any language, including C and C++, you need to have a model of execution to reason about time complexity. I grant that the model is generally simpler for procedural languages, especially given how the transformations usually don’t affect more than constant-factor operations, but you can apply largely the same to functional languages by reasoning about unavoidable work.
e.g. to sum all the elements in a list, every element must be visited and therefore the operation is
O(N). To retrieve an item from a:gb_sets, you have to traverse a binary-tree structure and therefore the operation isO(log N). And so on.Elixir is also simpler than other functional programming languages in that it’s based on Erlang, which defines every function everywhere as side-effecting because of tracing, which precludes all optimizations that would be visible when tracing is enabled (e.g. you cannot remove a function call that provably does “nothing,” because it would disappear from the trace), so @lud is quite right in that you can “reason procedurally” about time complexity in Elixir.
cmo
With SQL, it is mostly about having the right indexes. You can see what the database does by running it with explain, analyse, etc selected. You can paste the results into sites like this to get a "better” view. Edit: a resource on SQL indexes
In Elixir, I tend to think in terms of data structures and the most efficient way to transform/run an algorithm over them. There is an efficiency guide for Erlang.
jhogberg
The compiler respects all trace points that it has control over, and as such cannot perform even the simplest of optimizations that would affect tracing, like removing a redundant function call, unused parameters, ignored return values, and so on[1].
Technically we could try to maintain the illusion when tracing is enabled for the specific function that was opitimized away, but the maintainability trade-off is the epitome of “not worth it.” It’s far more involved than it first appears. ↩︎
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Schultzer
This is an intriguing discussion, I have always found it easier to make a decent assumption when it comes to SQL, since you’re working on sets, big table without indexes slow, many joins with suboptimal filters slow and so on since you’re literally just creating exponential queries in some cases.
But obviously there a non intuitive cases where you gotta reach for explain to understand why the query planner didn’t do what you expected it to do regardless of indexes.
But the same is true for any type of performance optimization, in the end you gotta read the assembly, which is annoying but arguably less today with AI.
Back to your question, is there no way to think about it natively. Big O tells you about access patterns into your data. So the language is completely irrelevant, I don’t even think (correct me if I’m wrong) that any language is used when teaching this academically, since pseudo code is preferable in these cases. That said immutable language have to used different data structures to guarantee the language constraints, although we still have safe mutability with constant time access in Erlang. The best way I found to learn about a language specific behaviour and complexity is to Google and the use of LLM. LLM are great for these kinda open ended question if you don’t have concrete question with a specific data structure and algorithm in mind where you can just look up the documentation.