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                  dimitarvp
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								<p><a class="mention" href="/u/kokolegorille" rel="nofollow">@kokolegorille</a> / <a class="mention" href="/u/overminddl1" rel="nofollow">@OvermindDL1</a> I was asking about backend OCaml usage though! <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiley.png?v=15" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Appreciate the remarks on BuckleScript / ReasonML. To me, the OCaml syntax is still alien but I really do like the idea of more preliminary contracts and would endure the learning process to [hopefully] have a class of bugs be eliminated by the compiler the moment your program is compiled successfully.</p>
<p>As for boilerplate: don’t the BuckleScript / ReasonML stacks offer macros or function calls that emulate the above kind-of-looking-verbose snippets? I’d naively assume so.</p> 
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								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="dimitarvp" data-post="22" data-topic="19596">
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>I was asking about backend OCaml usage though! <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiley.png?v=15" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>Oh on the backend OCaml rules.  Just treat OCaml as a faster, safer Python and you are generally good to go.  It has some great libraries for backend web work.  <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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								<p>And there is an OCaml GraphQL implementation, where type safety shines…</p>
<p><a class="mention" href="/u/dimitarvp" rel="nofollow">@dimitarvp</a> I am not familiar enough with OCaml to answer your question. But as mentionned by <a class="mention" href="/u/overminddl1" rel="nofollow">@OvermindDL1</a> You need to declare this to ensure type safety.</p> 
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								<p>I have considered Ruby and I’ve noticed that lots of Elixir devs used to use Ruby or still do. I’ve learned a little bit of Ruby in the past and I like it a lot but I’ve personally never used Ruby for any projects. That being said, I love your idea about using Ruby for rapid prototyping and using Elixir for the real system.</p>
<p>I guess what I’m really trying to do is to just avoid using only one programming paradigm throughout the day. I want to stay fresh on OOP while using Elixir so using Ruby for prototyping and testing out ideas sounds like an excellent idea. Also, I actually like Ruby more than Python but was only going to go with Python because I have previous experience with it and because it’s a bit more popular right now.</p>
<p>Thanks for the ideas. I’m going to take your advice and go the Ruby and Elixir route and use TypeScript mainly on the front-end.</p> 
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								<p>I don’t think one language does fit all.</p>
<p>Be prepared to learn the best tool, for a given situation.</p>
<p>For example, Python is an excellent choice if You work in AI.</p> 
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<p>That being said, I love your idea about using Ruby for rapid prototyping and using Elixir for the real system.</p>
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<p>But I don’t think Ruby is any faster for prototyping than Elixir.</p> 
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								<p>Sure (the mods will probably want to move it though).</p>
<p>A (not so) little history first: the first language I learned in university was Caml, and second was OCaml a year later. Every student hated them because at that time the trend was C, Java and C++ (and the way it was presented, I think most students took Ocaml as a beginner language), but after learning those I missed the ability to be able to match on elements of a struct, and be reminded by the compiler that matches were off if I ever added or removed elements, among other things.<br>
After a few years coding in Lua/JS/C++ I started coding a web server in C#, and even though many things were great and I enjoyed it, I still was not happy with all the runtime errors we always get because of a bad case or missing letter, and all the time lost because of that. I vented with a coworker (who is a fan of haskell) and kind of joked that if only there existed a webserver in Ocaml I’m sure it would take care of that at compile time and everything would be a breeze. He told me it was worth a look so I searched, and stumbled upon Ocsigen. That webserver, like Ocaml, was a thing of beauty that only cave-dwelling researchers can create. I was so happy! You change the number of fields in a form and forget to update the function handling the post? You link to a page you didn’t implement? You do a typo? <strong>The compiler will yell!</strong> Great! That’s what I had been waiting for years! Oh, and the ocaml code you wrote to check the form inputs? It’s going to be transcoded into JS so you can have client validation for free (and if you deactivate JS it works the same, unlike phoenix liveview <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/wink.png?v=15" title=":wink:" class="emoji" alt=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> )! You want to navigate to another page? It will diff the pages and send you just that. You could code your client side in ocaml too and share code between client and server. Etc.</p>
<p>There were three problems however:</p>
<ul>
<li>the compiler doesn’t know how to yell constructively. It’s not as bad as in C++ were you can get pages of errors because you forgot a semicolon <strong>somewhere else</strong>, but not far. The errors I get when I try carving my way with Elixir make so much more sense, instantly: they were made to be read and understood (and are presented beautifully on the page to boot!). Not Ocaml errors… You get somewhat used to them after a while but be prepared to lose your hair.</li>
<li>this fantastic project felt more like a proof of concept than anything else (and indeed it was). The project website was not nice, there were dead links everywhere in the doc (it’s impossible to have dead links with Ocsigen within the project, but they stupidly put their example code in other projects. What’s the point then?), and the docs themselves were poor and unhelpful. You had to infer many things in order to have a working skeleton of a website (again not in the docs), and the lack of an active community as well as personal problems made me lose interest after trying to make a few small websites 4 years ago.</li>
<li>the JS generated by the project is huge. I have only one small website still up using Ocsigen, and the bare JS is almost 5MB. Mostly static site, not even forms. That was the last nail in the coffin for me, as I was pondering about the strengths of Elixir/Phoenix at that time as well.</li>
</ul>
<p>In short, the main issue with Ocaml is not Ocaml itself. Great minds built it, but those people are no marketeers nor web people. They do not think they have to be, and I understand that, as their focus is on industrial projects.</p> 
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								<p>Glad to be of help. Another item to take into consideration is that in some languages you can program in more than one paradigm, e.g. C++. Also, the next version of Java will incorporate more “functional” features to the language. But again, for web development Elixir and Ruby will allow you to cover all the basis.</p>
<p>Cheers</p> 
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								<p>Good point. I was thinking that the OP (like most developers) has more experienced in OO languages and that Ruby will allow him to develop faster. But you’re right, that’s not so much about the languages in question</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/cochonours/48/13516_2.png" class="avatar"> Cochonours:</div>
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<p>In short, the main issue with Ocaml is not Ocaml itself. Great minds built it, but those people are no marketeers nor web people. They do not think they have to be, and I understand that, as their focus is on industrial projects.</p>
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<p>This is very understandable and they have my respect for it. I myself was a bit of a specialized programmer in my first 5-6 years of career and then moved on to being a generic CRUD web coder… which I don’t at all appreciate nowadays. -.-</p>
<p>That being said, I feel that languages like OCaml can <em>really</em> make a dent in the current foggy mire of half-specced – and poisoned by corporate tech lobbies – technologies like HTML, CSS and HTTP.</p>
<p>Thanks for the fantastic reply. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/uploads/default/original/2X/a/a1c41c89c299189a3f85edfeb4973563d8bac781.gif?v=15" title=":023:" class="emoji emoji-custom" alt=":023:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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