Basically it was about writing a very, very simple REST API in Phoenix, that is running a process to periodically update database entries - with the crux that that process should also return database results, and the db update takes a rather long time to go through, so you’d have to work around that bottleneck.
I made 2 key mistakes when working on this:
I thought the allotted time for this was 30 mins, to 1 hour, which I thought was pretty demanding, but not unreasonable (time was not given in the exercise description itself, it was somewhere buried in a general guide - and it was a lot more time than that…) So I did it a little too simplistic and went with “it works on my machine”
the machine I was writing this on was not my usual linux laptop (I ran an update a day before, and it completely disabled the network drivers - so I could not go online with it, and couldn’t update Elixir/Erlang/Phoenix etc…) and instead set up the WLS on my Windows gaming PC. Which is of course considerably more powerful than what the guys in the interview tested it with. So what took 3s for me (which I thought was slow, but good enough given the specs for the exercise) took more than 10 seconds for them - and I admit that is not in the acceptable range anymore.
I had already thought of an idea to solve the issue in 2 (even though I forgot that it would be way faster on my computer than most work mules people use for coding), but I thought I did not have the time to implement it, and I would just explain it in the interview if it came up.
Turns out, that was pretty much the main thing they were looking for, among other things I left out. Like testing certain edge cases, extracting parts of the code to make it easier to test individually (once again because of time I thought I did not have), etc…
I did not mention my problems with the time constraints in the interview - I only found out about the actual time I should have taken afterwards - because I thought that would make me look even worse.
Thanks for these in detail examples! As I am one of those first devlopers in my company (mid sized Ecommerce in Germany) and am sometimes involved in hiring it helps reflect on our own biases trying to keep them transparent to ourselves and thus trying to stay open to others opinions, experiences, practices and advice.
As long as someone is motivated, never stops learning and communicates openly, that person is a valuable asset to most companies out there.
I will try to keep the rest of my replies in one comment, and just mention the people. Not because I value their feedback less, but because the forum told me to do this in a suggestion text.
Interview processes are broken beyond repair, people bring a ton of unjustified bias and unreasonable expectations towards candidates and it’s extremely rarely to “fail” an interview entirely through your fault only. 95% of the time both sides “failed”.
I agree - and I already described a little bit of how we both failed in my case. Truth is, it’s just really hard to gauge people in interviews, and there is no right way to do it. I would even say, the company I applied to did a lot of things right, a lot more than I would hope for in most companies (part of why I was so upset with my failure.) No company can take weeks to assess people, and if they do… that’s pretty effed up too! You can’t take up a person’s time like that, just to tell them “yeah, sorry - good luck.” So I don’t really know how to fix that problem.
Just keep trying. It will be okay. Just don’t stop.
That seems to be the way forward, yes It’s not that easy to find the right fit right now, because I have a deadline at the end of this year (the latest) and other decisions to make that depend on my next workplace. I thought it would be fair to let my current employer know that I want to leave before I have sealed any deals for various reasons, but that also means I have given myself a timer - a generous one, but still a timer that is ticking down.
You had another longer post:
I don’t think you have to hold back being salty here… There were clearly some bad experiences you had, and I don’t know anyone who would not be angry about it, especially if you feel like it was not particularly your fault.
Have been in that position for the last 6 years. Happy to say I did not become complacent with my position, and did not just keep working towards being one of the “unfirable” people - which is why I am in this position now I actually don’t feel happy in my current job anymore, because I feel like I cannot distinguish between people following my suggestions just because I have been there from the start, or because it’s just legit good advice anymore.
Very likely part of why it hit me so hard - I felt like I had overestimated myself over the last years. After thinking about the feedback I got, I think that might be part of why I failed - over confidence - but I am still confident enough in my skill set to believe I can land another job that really fits me.
Been there, done that… Lets not get into a discussion about monolithic approaches in general - but umbrella applications? I am glad we did experiment with them, because now I can confidently say: Don’t do it, unless you have an extremely good reason for it.
Man, I hope I wont ever have to deal with that. That is pretty much my nightmare scenario, doing development in a “political” way. Good thing you got out of that.
Big one… I have been part of most planing meetings for a long time in my current company, until I started working on pulling out, because I was thinking I might start to look for a new challenge, and I also thought that I had too many responsibilities combined in one person.
And then suddenly, I was given brain-dead coding things, pre-decided. When I asked why, I was told that “you are not really good in UI design, and this one was really a UI question” - but it was not, at least not entirely. That was what pretty much made my decision to quit final - if I can’t be part of the process, just because I am starting to hand over some of my responsibilities anymore, then I really don’t like what I am doing here.
That honestly just sounds as if they simply were not sold on your ways, and did not want to spare resources to pursue another way. In a way, it is way easier for a company to change or adapt, because they have many people who can just adjust a little to find a middle ground between new and old. And that’s what makes hiring new people so exciting - they can bring in some different opinions, different ways of looking at what has already been built!
If the company does not want to change at all, then that’s probably a red flag right there, and raises the question why they did hire you specifically in the first place…
@Desty thank you for your kind words, and I absolutely agree with what you said at the end of the post
That’s how I always tried to approach the interviews I was part of (on the employer’s side of the chair.) And I absolutely believe I made a good case to my boss about the whys - you can teach a lot of people how to code in any given language, but you can’t find teachers for people nobody can stand.
I don’t disagree - I think it’s really more about how to design your hiring process once you reached a certain amount of employees. How do you make all those people agree to certain values? Or look for them?
Phew… idk if this was really better than doing individual answers, but here you go.
I think that is a very good step in the right direction.
There are human elements that are very hard to address in any kind of interview setting… If someone gets nervous, they might seem like an undesirable person. If someone does not like someone in the interviewers, they might close up and pull out of the interview, even though they might be a perfect fit except with that one person. If someone just hits a bad note (saying something that is a bad meme in your company), but was really just trying to be funny. If someone dresses the wrong way for one of the interviewers… and so, so many more small details that can ruin an interview for a really good candidate.
In the end, I think we have to come to terms with everyone just being human, and sometimes we miss good opportunities, because of some things that could turn out to be minor road bumps… On both ends. That’s what I will take away from this experience. Seems like I hit the spot in the first 2 interviews, but failed to impress in the last one - partly due to my overconfidence, partly due to some bad communication on their part. But I stopped blaming either party. As we say in German
OMG, at these moments I get glad I got rejected and didn’t get to places like these
It started looking to me like copy-pasting some code from StackOverflow without even understanding what it’s doing. Same in interviewing: people ask questions they got copy-pasted somewhere without even understanding what they are for
I can say that I agree with these points and came upon them as well. Thanks for laying out and wording them nicely.
I think you understood what you can improve in the future: manage expectations early. If you feel a deadline is too unfair, just say it. I’ve had some fairly demanding homework assignments and I have outright refused some of them while saying more or less this: “people, in a real work setting I’d never try to code this in 2 hours because I’ll have to make compromises that are not representative of my best work”.
So I’d say in your case you should have:
Told them early if the deadline was too short;
Pursued them for a crystal-clear list of expectations for the homework (if it wasn’t already clear?);
Ask a few general questions, mostly “do you expect the logic of this to be exhaustively covered or are you looking to see how I would generally and on a surface level solve the problem?”
Mind you, there’s a good chunk of interviewers that wouldn’t even answer #3; they expect you to figure it out which is not always fair. But when I was given a week to complete an assignment that’s realistically 5-6 hours of steady and calm work then I preferred to assume they want the detailed exhaustive version and not something surface-level.
50/50. I sympathize with you and I know it can feel out of the blue – but part of the skills some companies expect is that you be able to hop on a meeting call and figure out what’s going on as you go. Hence, a good amount of interviewers would like to test that ability and not give you clear pointers as you enter the meeting.
Not very fair in general but somewhat fair when you understand what are they looking for in you.
As you said, you were out of the interview game for a while. That definitely contributed to your confusion. Being overconfident though? I wasn’t there but I think there’s a cult to (way too much) modesty in our circles and a lot of people judge you by the mere virtue of you not acting like a beaten dog – happened to me several times. There aren’t many people (not only programmers but humanity in general) out there that do not mistake “being cheeky / joyful / playful + having some confidence” with “he’s an overconfident a$$”. That’s on them, not on you.
And on the other hand, I just got rejected for a coding exercise where I did MORE than expected. Sometimes you just get a bad hand, I think.
Mine was an API project also, where I was expected to implement 3 mandatory features, and up to 4 optional features. I did all seven, plus included a comprehensive test suite for all 7 features.
After that, I didn’t even get a call, or any feedback on the project.. Just an email saying I wasn’t the right fit. And this was after two video interviews where the fit was PERFECT - I got along super well with both interviewers, and all three of us agreed that my experience and goals were totally in-line with the expectations of the position.
This was earlier this month, my 8th month of searching everyday for an Elixir position.
Man, I don’t even know what to say… that sounds horrible. And not even getting feedback?? You should definitely email them and demand feedback.
Hey there
I went through most of the hiring process, and I think I did more than asked for in the coding exercise.
Can you please give me some feedback on why exactly I failed? I would like to do better next time, but I need your feedback.
Regards
XXX
just something like that - customize for your needs.
EDIT: and if they give you some bullsht reason again, ask again. And again. And again. If they put you on spam, then you know they are **** and you are lucky you did not have to deal with them.
Oh, I did send a polite email like that, thanking them for the opportunity and requesting some feedback, and they still have not sent any reply, weeks later, so I guess I’ve been “ghosted”. After a 4-hour code exercise…
It’s not that easy to find the right fit right now, because I have a deadline at the end of this year (the latest) and other decisions to make that depend on my next workplace. I thought it would be fair to let my current employer know that I want to leave before I have sealed any deals for various reasons, but that also means I have given myself a timer - a generous one, but still a timer that is ticking down.
I actually don’t feel happy in my current job anymore, because I feel like I cannot distinguish between people following my suggestions just because I have been there from the start, or because it’s just legit good advice anymore.
