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                  lpil
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									<span>Creator of Gleam</span>
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								<aside class="quote no-group" data-username="AstonJ" data-post="31" data-topic="73151">
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/astonj/48/15_2.png" class="avatar"> AstonJ:</div>
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<p>Do you mean syntax or how it works under the hood?</p>
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<p>I mean the semantics of the language and the experience of working with it. Elixir and Gleam are rather conventional programming languages, while Cure’s feature set would make it very different.</p>
<p>It’s hard to say as Cure isn’t documented yet, but the stated features could make it a good deal more sophisticated than languages like Idris, and potentially even more challenging to understand and to write.</p>
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<p>Syntax mattering may be more important to those who have an eye for aesthetics and feel (so those who tend to like languages like Ruby and Elixir).</p>
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<p>I agree syntax is important (I believe Gleam’s syntax was a key part of it’s success), but the challenge of learning to use dependant types and SMT-validation are dramatically greater than the complexities found in other programming languages, so in this specific case I think syntax is comparatively unimportant. To replicate the functionality of a trivial program in Elixir or JavaScript in a language with these features would be quite an accomplishment, and indicate the programmer has invested a great deal of time and effort into studying advanced type theory and its application.</p> 
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<blockquote>
<p>I mean the semantics of the language and the experience of working with it. Elixir and Gleam are rather conventional programming languages, while Cure’s feature set would make it very different.</p>
<p>It’s hard to say as Cure isn’t documented yet, but the stated features could make it a good deal more sophisticated than languages like Idris, and potentially even more challenging to understand and to write.</p>
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<p>Similarly, Elixir from a Rubyists perspective was a paradigm shift, with Elixir being a functional language, introducing concepts like pattern matching, processes, message passing, etc. But it solved a particular problem - as it could be argued other languages did - but people still opted for Elixir despite it being so different.</p>
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<p>I agree syntax is important (I believe Gleam’s syntax was a key part of it’s success), but the challenge of learning to use dependant types and SMT-validation are dramatically greater than the complexities found in other programming languages, so in this specific case I think syntax is comparatively unimportant. To replicate the functionality of a trivial program in Elixir or JavaScript in a language with these features would be quite an accomplishment, and indicate the programmer has invested a great deal of time and effort into studying advanced type theory and its application.</p>
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<p>If you’re saying Gleam and Cure are so different that they wouldn’t be in that position to begin with (where someone is having to decide between them to do something that Elixir might not be suited to) then it eliminates Gleam or Cure from the equation entirely depending on what they can or can’t do or what they are or are not suited to.</p>
<p>Ultimately, it would probably boil down to:</p>
<ul>
<li>What can Gleam do that Elixir can’t</li>
<li>What can Cure do that Elixir can’t</li>
<li>Out of the above, what can Gleam AND Cure do, and out of these which is the more compelling option depending on complexity/syntax/other things that are important to that particular user</li>
</ul>
<p>From what you’re saying it seems that Cure and Gleam aren’t really designed to solve the same kind of problem or in the same kind of way, in which case it would make the decision easier.</p> 
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								<p>Sorry, I’ve been unclear. I’m not saying just that it’s different in a way that Ruby’s OOP is different to Elixir and Gleam’s FP, it’s radically more challenging than anything found in any of those languages.</p>
<p>Dependant types and SMT validation are open areas of computer science research, especially their practical application in programming. The concepts that Elixir, Gleam, or Ruby each introduce were all well understood and in use 40-50 years ago, and they are trivial by comparison.</p>
<p>Note I’m not being critical of Elixir or Gleam or Ruby here. Being well understood and easy to use is a positive, not a negative.</p> 
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								<p>I don’t know enough about SMT validation to comment on how radically different Cure might be but if it’s as much of a paradigm shift as you say, and that they’re designed to be used in very different scenarios or purposes, then there probably won’t be a major cross-over or competition between them. Elixir users will continue to use Elixir until there is a need to use Cure for something it excels in or offers - and the same might be true for Gleam, Gleam users might also opt for Cure for those specialist use-cases.</p>
<p>I guess we’ll just have to wait for more info to see what Cure’s USP is in real world use.</p> 
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									<span>Creator of Cure</span>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/48.png" class="avatar"> matt-savvy:</div>
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<p>Is there any interesting story with how Cure handles effects?</p>
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<p>Not yet. Technically, this is not the first priority because effects make it drastically harder to use SMT solvers, and Cure is supposed to be used to implement critical parts of the logic and then call it from other BEAM langs.</p>
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<p>I couldn’t find any documentation on these features in Cure</p>
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<p>My bad. I posted an announce too early because after a months deeply in, I was under the wrong impression that everything is evident and clean <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>significantly improved performance</p>
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<p>That’s definitely not the killer feature. Despite I have put some effort to optimization, Cure does not aim to be faster. It aims to be <em>proved</em> to be error-free.</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Disclaimer.</strong> I got a COVID and I am off the grid until next week or so. Thanks everyone for understanding. I see there is an interest in what I am doing and therefore I’ll start with a proper timeline, and feature plan. Until now I was in a rush to make it work from Cure code through type checker, code gen and runtime, which is confusing for newcomers.</p> 
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								<p>Wishing you a speedy recovery!</p> 
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<p>I see there is an interest in what I am doing and therefore I’ll start with a proper timeline, and feature plan. Until now I was in a rush to make it work from Cure code through type checker, code gen and runtime, which is confusing for newcomers.</p>
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<p>Could be nice to have, but you definately don’t owe us (or anybody else) anything.</p> 
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<p>Not yet. Technically, this is not the first priority because effects make it drastically harder to use SMT solvers, and Cure is supposed to be used to implement critical parts of the logic and then call it from other BEAM langs.</p>
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<p>That’s the impression that I got.</p>
<p>I might be in the minority, but I love the idea of having layers of the application that are pure functions only.</p> 
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                  mudasobwa
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/48.png" class="avatar"> matt-savvy:</div>
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<p>having layers of the application that are pure functions only</p>
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<p>Cure is providing such a layer, yes. Exactly.</p>
<p>When it comes to unpureness, the implementation becomes either pure unmaintainable beauty (see Brady’s implementation of <code>printf</code> for Idris, the mindblowing piece of art, which converted me to the Dependent Types Coming Witness,) or a bunch of compromises, sacrificing the whole idea of pure functions.</p>
<p>Once we are on BEAM already, I decided not to try to lift three times my weight, but rather do what I can do without hacks and delegate to other BEAM langs to handle effects.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/lpil/48/17492_2.png" class="avatar"> lpil:</div>
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<p>Both dependent types and SMT verification are active open areas of computer science research, and while useful and extremely powerful, how to make either of them approachable and productive in a language is an unsolved problem. Idris may be the most successful project there for dependant types, but even then it is a very challenging language to learn and write.</p>
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<p>Exactly. This is a problem I was after.</p>
<p>What always bugged me in languages proclaiming type safety, was their Kantian thing-in-itself-ness. I mean, come on, to solve real world world problems, we would nevertheless need to parse alien JSON, or like. And all these IO monads, effects, etc are all just a compromise.</p>
<p>My experience with writing significant parts of business logic domain in Idris and then translating to Elixir, made me sure that I never need to write interop in Idris. On the boundary one might simply trust the developer, without any redundant criple handling. That clicked.</p>
<p>Cure doesn’t aim to be a general purpose language and it’ll never do. I do not even want to keep <code>IO.println/1</code> standard lib (now I need it to simplify testing, later it might be needed for kinda logging, but still.)</p>
<p>Not pretending to try to be as generic as possible, simplifies things a lot. Before my lungs let me down, I was just running forward, as a wild cheetah, and I am grateful I am having this time without <code>vim</code> opened to rethink the approach.</p> 
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