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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/mudasobwa/48/5298_2.png" class="avatar"> mudasobwa:</div>
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<p>My curiosity was mostly about the consistency of “I’m a product author and the code is just the medium” and “These fancy products exist and therefore I have kinda proof of what I brag of.”</p>
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<p>Well, they aren’t fancy products by any means, and I wasn’t bragging. Sorry you got that impression.</p>
<p>As a side note though, the whole “if your LLM-written code is so good, why not give us a link to some repos?” comes across as a weird gotcha attempt. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but I’ve been in enough of these types of discussions to be suspicious. You are free to think whatever you want about AI, and use it as much or as little as you want. All I’m saying is that it is working great for me in my own business, and also for my team at work.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/engineering-leads-what-are-you-doing-to-stop-the-slop/74851/152">Post #151</a>
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									<span>Creator of Cure</span>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/egeersoz/48/15704_2.png" class="avatar"> egeersoz:</div>
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<p>All I’m saying is that it is working great for me in my own business, and also for my team at work.</p>
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<p>Well, there is more to that. We are on the sorta professional forum, in the thread called “Engineering leads, what are you doing to stop the slop?”</p>
<p>I strongly believe that if I’d post that <em>Vodou/Santería rituals sacrificing chickens to offer their blood to the Loa/Orishas</em> helped me a lot and the code is now just a medium, people would friendly ask me for the proof. Each and every post in this thread is somewhat opinion-making, and I got that impression that if you prefer to keep the kind of tasks AI helps you with a secret, there is not much sense in saying that it works. Sure, transforming JSON with it could also save me a human-month if I was into JSON-transforming.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/engineering-leads-what-are-you-doing-to-stop-the-slop/74851/153">Post #152</a>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/martosaur/48/38317_2.png" class="avatar"> martosaur:</div>
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<p>I can’t think of a single <em>great</em> engineer who I personally worked with who jumped on the Claude train and is killing it.</p>
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<p>Not sure how you define “great” engineer.</p>
<p>Does DHH count?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/dhh/status/2007504187568074843" class="onebox" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://x.com/dhh/status/2007504187568074843</a></p>
<p>What about Chris McCord?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1993348443901968432" class="onebox" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1993348443901968432</a></p>
<p>Or Ryan Dahl, the guy who invented Node.js?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/rough__sea/status/2013280952370573666" class="onebox" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://x.com/rough__sea/status/2013280952370573666</a></p>
<p>Simon Willison, one of the co-creators of Django?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/simonw/status/2007904766756880848" class="onebox" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://x.com/simonw/status/2007904766756880848</a></p>
<p>These people are some of the most prominent movers and shakers of modern software engineering, and their inventions collectively power much of the Internet today. In your opinion, what do they know that you don’t?</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/mudasobwa/48/5298_2.png" class="avatar"> mudasobwa:</div>
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<p>Each and every post in this thread is somewhat opinion-making, and I got that impression that if you prefer to keep the kind of tasks AI helps you with a secret</p>
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<p>You appear to be moving goal posts. You previously asked for <em>links to repos</em>. You did not ask about the <em>kind of tasks AI helps with</em>. If that’s what you’re actually asking, I have previously given an <a href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/ai-is-getting-ridiculously-productive/74715/19" rel="nofollow">example</a> before about a massive engineering effort AI helped my business get through. Others have shared similar stories, both in that thread and elsewhere, if you care to look.</p> 
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	                  <a title="Go to post" alt="Go to post" href="https://forum.elixirforum.com/t/engineering-leads-what-are-you-doing-to-stop-the-slop/74851/155">Post #154</a>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/278dde/48.png" class="avatar"> DaAnalyst:</div>
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<p>It’s about the fact that now with Claude I can finally dedicate much more time to what I actually love the most - creating new value.</p>
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<p>That is great and I’m very curious to know where this journey will lead you overtime! Different people report different perceived effects as they transition through different stages and so far there’s no one coherent picture about a <em>typical</em> journey, so every data point is valuable. So please report back!</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>Which parts of what I said you disagree with in particular?itself?</p>
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<p>Oh I’m disagreeing with you at all! I want to provide an alternative frame and some gentle pushback to a common point, because I don’t often see it provided and I want it to be part of the conversation. I cannot disprove your personal feelings!</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>Do you prefer discussing where in a file do private functions belong or would you rather go fix a Heisenbug that made you have to live-correct customer’s financial accounts because the code you are responsible for was badly designed and that allowed the bug to manifest itself?</p>
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<p>I don’t really think is a real dichotomy to be honest. Private vs public discussion sure sounds like very unimportant topic that shouldn’t be discussed. It really must be a very slow day at work for me to get into a discussion like that.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/dimitarvp/48/38664_2.png" class="avatar"> dimitarvp:</div>
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<p>I am not sure why that statement should carry any weight. I meet people from both camps whom I respect. They do well in their own unique ways and I learn from all that I meet.</p>
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<p>Oh that’s cool, tell me more about that! Did you join a new team or maybe hired someone? What impressed you about them? <em>What are they doing to stop the slop</em>?</p> 
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								<p>But to me it’s obvious why - we’re all different!</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/martosaur/48/38317_2.png" class="avatar"> martosaur:</div>
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<p>I don’t really think is a real dichotomy to be honest. Private vs public discussion sure sounds like very unimportant topic that shouldn’t be discussed. It really must be a very slow day at work for me to get into a discussion like that.</p>
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<p>Indeed, and my example was exaggerated for effect and I agree it’s not a real dichotomy.</p>
<p>My point generally was: I met many code golfers and I am very glad that the LLM era is mostly keeping them quiet. That’s one occupational hazard nobody told me about. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smile.png?v=15" title=":smile:" class="emoji" alt=":smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> And I am glad that the agents are reducing it.</p>
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<p>Oh that’s cool, tell me more about that! Did you join a new team or maybe hired someone? What impressed you about them? <em>What are they doing to stop the slop</em>?</p>
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<p>It’s mostly what <a class="mention" href="/u/jhogberg" rel="nofollow">@jhogberg</a> said plus a few other small things: we as humans still hold a lot of value in understanding the bigger picture and having the actual requirements in our heads and never losing sight of it.</p>
<p>And that plugged into my earlier responses: be more of an architect who has intimate coding knowledge and skills but leave the drudgery and boring / typing work to the agent. I still have to chase after it – just 15 minutes ago I caught Claude approving a PR where a wrong min/max value was still mentioned in the docs.</p>
<p>Stopping the slop is mostly about keeping good mental picture. Thinking well, with quality, and not forgetting easily have never been more important.</p>
<p>Concrete steps though? Not many outside of “be rigorous and never forget the <em>goal</em> of what you are currently working on”. Very easy to get drowned in a +723-313 PR, especially when its the 4th one for the week and it’s only Wednesday noon.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/martosaur/48/38317_2.png" class="avatar"> martosaur:</div>
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<p><em>What are they doing to stop the slop</em>?</p>
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<p>One thing I could have been more explicit about: they do what I do, which is “deeply analyze <em>what do we need</em> and make every line of code justify its existence”. Convergence and shrinking to the MVP (in terms of property testing).</p>
<p>If you keep an LLM accountable and force it to write with the current goal in mind <em>and</em> the entire project’s context and have a plethora of policies in place (which I keep adding to and revising periodically) then Claude does an amazing job.</p> 
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								<p>Ha, I love how this convo keeps going!  Gives me a lot to procrastinate with <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/jhogberg/48/24176_2.png" class="avatar"> jhogberg:</div>
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<p>The effects of a shoddy solution are rarely felt straight away and if we’re all out of work by the time someone figures out that everything is messed up, then it might be a bit late.</p>
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<p>This is what I worry about most (well, the technical thing I worry about most, this discussion hasn’t gone deep into any politics around this stuff which I think is for the better).  I just published my first heavily LLM assisted library and it’s been a great experience.  It is something I would have never taken on (or at least never gotten this far) if it wasn’t for LLMs, but I certainly still needed to review the code.  Embarrassingly, even though I was reviewing code, I started to get sloppy as the addiction kicking and I ended up committing (and pushing) a generated Erlang file which should have not only been ignored, but contained a hardcoded local path on my machine!  I know this is largely because I’m new to this and haven’t built up a library of “skills” and whatnot, but still I don’t think we are anywhere near where we can vibe production code.  My problem with the whole “who cares so long as it works, people already ship horrible code all the time” is exactly that: people already shipping horrible code all the time!  We already have a problem and this is making it worse.</p>
<p>This brings me to:</p>
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<p>He had a certain superiority complex and quite low and vocal thoughts about mass produced furniture. By his chosen metrics he had good points as his furniture had clearly better technical quality. The majority of buyers and manufacturers though focused more on functional furniture at competitive affordable prices. What he did not consider, was the equally high skilled work needed to design attractive furniture for mass manufacture with computerized machines and setups, inexpensive storage and shipping, easy assembly and low prices. That is an art too, but one he simply did not see or acknowledge.</p>
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<p>I don’t disagree that coming up with mass-produced stuff is art, but in an academic debate it is certainly much lower art than hand-crafting furniture, and the product itself is often kitsch.  One of my favourite things I’ve heard certainly is: “I’m too broke to buy cheap stuff.”  All mass-producing stuff really does is create a race to the bottom.  If it didn’t exist, hand-crafted stuff would still be pricey but wolud be way more affordable if it was all that available and woodworkers had constant business.  So, uh, yes, love your comment though that is the part it fell down a little for me (other than you are just decribing the reality we’re in, so can’t fault you there).</p>
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<p>Not sure how you define “great” engineer.</p>
<p>Does DHH count?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/dhh/status/2007504187568074843" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">DHH on X: "Just this past summer, I spoke with @lexfridman about not letting AI write any code directly, but it turns out half the resistance was simply that the models weren't good enough yet! I spent more time rewriting what it wrote than if I'd done it from scratch. That has now flipped." / X</a></p>
<p>What about Chris McCord?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/chris_mccord/status/1993348443901968432" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Chris McCord on X: "before you drag the "software engineering is over by next year" quote, consider Dario's "90% of Code will be made by AI in 3–6 Months" has rung true (for my own dev). No idea what next year looks like, but full-vibe-full-send could absolutely be the default (for better or worse)" / X</a></p>
<p>Or Ryan Dahl, the guy who invented Node.js?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/rough__sea/status/2013280952370573666" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Ryan Dahl on X: "This has been said a thousand times before, but allow me to add my own voice: the era of humans writing code is over. Disturbing for those of us who identify as SWEs, but no less true. That's not to say SWEs don't have work to do, but writing syntax directly is not it." / X</a></p>
<p>Simon Willison, one of the co-creators of Django?</p>
<p><a href="https://x.com/simonw/status/2007904766756880848" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">Simon Willison on X: "It genuinely feels to me like GPT-5.2 and Opus 4.5 in November represent an inflection point - one of those moments where the models get incrementally better in a way that tips across an invisible capability line where suddenly a whole bunch of much harder coding problems open up" / X</a></p>
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<p>Sorry to keep picking on you <a class="mention" href="/u/egeersoz" rel="nofollow">@egeersoz</a> but you are obviously the biggest booster here!  I do have a problem with these examples because a) as I’ve already pointed out, DHH says he still hand-codes, b) Chris McCord has that small but ever-potent quip: “for better or for worse,” c) Simon Willison is paid to boost AI, and d) <small>(and of course I’m trolling a bit here)</small> Ryan Dahl not only brought us JavaScript on the server but was proud of it!  The man is obviously a sociopath that no one should listen to <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/wink.png?v=15" title=":wink:" class="emoji" alt=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>I do realize you are responding to “great engineers who use it” but this is the second time you’ve shared this list and I just wanted to get that off my chest as it’s more proof of “LLM-use is inevitable” over “LLMs are a good idea.”</p> 
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