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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/martosaur/48/38317_2.png" class="avatar"> martosaur:</div>
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<p>The reason why I’m skeptical is that this argument is based entirely on self-reports and humans have very limited introspection. We are masters of reframing and rationalization and have complex psychological mechanisms working day and night to preserve our self-image.</p>
<p>So what is it we’re trying to rationalize when we claim that LLMs free our brain cycles to think more about important stuff? I think it’s the usual suspect - avoiding doing the hard thing. Deep focused work is hard and unpleasant and LLMs can be <em>easily</em> used to shortcut it. It’s a job, after all, it’s natural to want to work a little bit less hard. To cope with that, we tell ourselves that the work that we off-load to LLMs wasn’t worth doing anyway and we now focus more on <em>real</em> architecture. This usually takes a form of chatting with Claude about some galaxy brain concepts or drawing boxes in Figma or whatnot.</p>
<p>Of course, there is no way for me to know for sure what’s going on in other people’s heads. But that is aligned with my personal experience. I can’t think of a single <em>great</em> engineer who I personally worked with who jumped on the Claude train and is killing it. They’re all skeptical to some degree. I also haven’t met a single Claude-powered engineer since November 2025 who would impress and inspire me! Even though that used to happen a lot. There is, however, no shortage of people who fall deeper and deeper into the death spiral of LLM-induced building spree. They build and build and build completely unconstrained by anything with every their idea being validated and encouraged by AI. Every day, as they produce thousands lines of code, they step by step detach from reality.</p>
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<p>I replied to this partially but want to elaborate on the larger point.</p>
<p>The argument you’re making is self-defeating in a specific way: you use introspection skepticism as the weapon (humans rationalize, so self-reports about AI helping are suspect) and then your evidence is entirely your own introspection, i.e. you cannot think of a great engineer using Claude who impresses you. If the mechanism is real then it applies just as much to the skeptic watching their craft get automated as it does to the enthusiast. You don’t get to deploy it in one direction.</p>
<p>Second, you characterize the freed capacity as fake work. You call it “galaxy brain concepts” and “drawing boxes in Figma”. But the work hasn’t vanished, it has simply moved. Someone who uses Claude well does their thinking in the planning conversations rather than the diff reviews. The mental model of the system gets built up-front by directing rather than back-loaded by inspecting. It is not much different than reading an engineering design document written by a coworker and doing review/feedback cycles until your own understanding of what will get built is rock solid. That is how system knowledge gets spread in every team I’ve worked in and it works very well so long as everyone is doing their due diligence (which one absolutely must with AI in order to get good results).</p>
<p>Lastly, I will say this: the meta-pattern of “real programmers don’t need X” has been deployed at every stage of our field’s history, usually by senior practitioners. It has been deployed against compilers, garbage collection, IDEs, autocomplete, Stack Overflow, type systems, auto-formatters. In every wave, the skeptics were partly right about skill atrophy but decisively wrong about the net effect. Incidentally, this is why Linus Torvalds recently likened the productivity benefits of AI to those of compilers: he himself has been using AI more and more and says he wished people treated it like any other tool.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
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<p>Sorry to keep picking on you <a class="mention" href="/u/egeersoz" rel="nofollow">@egeersoz</a> but you are obviously the biggest booster here! I do have a problem with these examples because a) as I’ve already pointed out, DHH says he still hand-codes, b) Chris McCord has that small but ever-potent quip: “for better or for worse,” c) Simon Willison is paid to boost AI, and d) <small>(and of course I’m trolling a bit here)</small> Ryan Dahl not only brought us JavaScript on the server but was proud of it! The man is obviously a sociopath that no one should listen to <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/wink.png?v=15" title=":wink:" class="emoji" alt=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>I do realize you are responding to “great engineers who use it” but this is the second time you’ve shared this list and I just wanted to get that off my chest as it’s more proof of “LLM-use is inevitable” over “LLMs are a good idea.”</p>
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<p>DHH still hand-codes but it is less and less. This is according to him. He actually has a pretty great interview that you should watch, if you’re curious about the details: <a href="https://youtu.be/JiWgKRgdgpI?si=xSoMivFBZOVX86pH&amp;t=1912" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://youtu.be/JiWgKRgdgpI?si=xSoMivFBZOVX86pH&amp;t=1912</a></p>
<p>I do not think Simon gets paid to boost AI. Would love to see some evidence of that, if you know otherwise. He actually recently said he makes no money from it, which is why he added a donation/subscription feature to his blog, so that he can justify the time spent, and also that he needs to start charging consulting fees because everyone keeps pestering him.</p>
<p>I don’t have objections to your other points, especially about Dahl. I dislike Node.js myself. But it does power millions of websites. I may be off by an order of magnitude.</p> 
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								<p>To be perfectly honest, the main reason I responded was that I wanted to make that Ryan Dahl joke <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=15" title=":stuck_out_tongue:" class="emoji" alt=":stuck_out_tongue:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20">  And is Simon not paid to write his blog?  It’s highly possibly I’m just taking to heart hearsay that I hoped to be true <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/grimacing.png?v=15" title=":grimacing:" class="emoji" alt=":grimacing:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> But… but… but… Steve Yegge is paid by AI!  So there!  lol.</p>
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<p>This is according to him. He actually has a pretty great interview that you should watch, if you’re curious about the details: <a href="https://youtu.be/JiWgKRgdgpI?si=xSoMivFBZOVX86pH&amp;t=1912" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://youtu.be/JiWgKRgdgpI?si=xSoMivFBZOVX86pH&amp;t=1912</a></p>
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<p>Watching!  And thanks for timestamping it!</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
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<p>All mass-producing stuff really does is create a race to the bottom. If it didn’t exist, hand-crafted stuff would still be pricey but wolud be way more affordable if it was all that available and woodworkers had constant business. So, uh, yes, love your comment though that is the part it fell down a little for me (other than you are just decribing the reality we’re in, so can’t fault you there).</p>
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<p>I knew that writing art instead of skill would provoke someone a bit. <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/smiley.png?v=15" title=":smiley:" class="emoji" alt=":smiley:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
<p>Making something really nice within the additional limits created by adaptation to specific mass production processes, logistics and economic minimalism is technically harder than making a one-off with no or little concern about any of that. Thus, for me personally anyone who can do that well is very skilled technically, and if the product is nice and functional also a good designer. From there whether it is art or not should likely be evaluated by the end product itself, and not how it was made? Being a one off is not a requirement for a work to be art.</p>
<p>Judging all mass produced as bad and all hand crafted as good is too coarse a categorization for me. I am living proof as my hand crafted stuff certainly isn’t art to anyone but my mother (at best). There are those that maintains a definition that art has to be useless, and by that standard anything with a functional purpose would fail regardless of how it was made.</p>
<p>But to return to something more in line with the thread itself: Making skills I have sometimes wished for calibrated example applications. For Elixir that could for instance be some applications covering key areas with very well defined functional requirements and strictly idiomatic best practices architecture and code. That would make it easier to optimize skills by having a clear functionality to prompt for and a clear architecture and code goal to achieve and measure success against. Multiply that over a few key areas and any skill successfully recreating all would be elusively perfect. Any close to perfection would likely still be very good - and confirmed to be so. (Edit: Oh, and that would help fight the slop! I should make a t-shirt like that. “Fight the slop!”).</p> 
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<p>My problem with the whole “who cares so long as it works, people already ship horrible code all the time” is exactly that: people already shipping horrible code all the time! We already have a problem and this is making it worse.</p>
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<p>This triggers me more than anything (in the sense that I recognize it’s happening). Developers churing out bad code, cutting corners, and focusing on “making it work” are given tools to do more damage faster. Even worse: they are praised for their massive output, while their colleagues can’t keep up with the reviews (“But everything works, right? I even prompted the thing to generate tests!”).</p>
<p>We’re in an era where a lot of itches are being scratched. Many libraries are being published, often carried by solo developers finally able to act upon their “someday-maybe” list. I genuinely think it’s great, and a lot of creativity is unlocked. Heck, my father in law is killing it with Claude, at the age of almost 80, for some hobby projects. Dreams are coming true.</p>
<p>But those are mostly silo’s. Single devs, acting on their ideas. I would be hesitant to draw in a dependency on a vibe coded library, when it was created over a few weekends, without much back and forth with a community that pushes back and gives feedback.<br>
I wildly agree with Bob Nystrom here, that “spending time” is a great way to <a href="https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2026/01/24/the-value-of-things/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">create value</a>. There is a sweetspot to be had here. But LLMs are not pushing us towards that sweetspot (I want it now!).</p>
<p>I have yet to see how LLMs foster more communication and collaboration. I see the opposite happening: “let me code that for you”. The hero-type programmer, daring to take on even more risks, and larger endeavors. Alone that is, without much consultation. Asking their LLM, rather than their users, about UX, DX or whatnot. Unchecked plausible assumptions all over the place. An LLM as an exoskeleton.</p>
<p>I hope this will change too, when all the itches are scratched. That we will build the <em>right</em> tools, which inevitably requires us to work together again.</p> 
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								<p>Ah ya, I am very easily baited <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>Judging all mass produced as bad and all hand crafted as good is too coarse a categorization for me. I</p>
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<p>Yes this is fair.  I do own some very high quality and beautiful items that were mass-produced, such as kitchen knives, that would have taken a lot of skill to design.</p>
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<p>But to return to something more in line with the thread itself: Making skills I have sometimes wished for calibrated example applications.</p>
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<p>I feel dumb here: are you talking about LLM “skills”?  I’m still new, lol.</p> 
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								<p>I was going to talk a bit about the hastiness earlier, but I still feel very new as an LLM-convert so I didn’t, but ya, as I said above, I’m on the verge of announcing a library that is heavily LLM assisted.  There are a few reasons I’m feeling OK about it, but mainly it’s that it’s essentially a port of PhoenixTest for Hologram.  So a) it’s already a mostly-understood API and b) it only lives as a test dependency and hopefully, if you were going to use this, you also have true e2e tests.  In any event, not having something like this was hurting my desire to keep going with Hologram because I’m a BDD’r and in LiveView I almost always start with a LiveView test and ya, it’s undeniable that being able to make this happen in days instead of weeks (or months) is a really good feeling.</p>
<p>ANYWAY, I’m also working on a form abstraction library and this one I am not leaning on the LLM much and asking questions to (what I hope are) actual people on Discord <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"> because yes: I think it’s important to get early community feedback and collaborate with humans, as you said. Otherwise, I’m actually losing my point here a bit because since I started typing this my dog started staring at me and is now intermittently barking at me and I should probably feed him and finish this later buuuuut I think I’m just going to hit send <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/sweat_smile.png?v=15" title=":sweat_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p> 
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                  Vidar
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/sodapopcan/48/34668_2.png" class="avatar"> sodapopcan:</div>
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<p>are you talking about LLM “skills”</p>
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<p>Yes.</p>
<p>Skills can be considered to text added to the context of the AI when asked for or if certain keywords or file extensions trigger loading it. The text itself can be made to give the AI actionable guidance, reference and examples of how to do things. It is not deterministic though as the AI can vary interpretation, ignore or forget parts just like any other text given to it. It still helps to direct the choices the AI make.</p>
<p>One of the things I do which is kind of different from most is making and using very fat skills. Most skills will be tiny skeletons in comparison. My logic about that is two fold: 1. More guidance and examples tend to give better results. 2. By providing validated reference code examples and guidance I have more control of what sources the AI takes inspiration from. I prefer that over the AI running off to some random web page or repo picking up a bit here and there, or using just its own naked training which may or may not be close to the mark. The latter will still heavily be there of course. (The downside of fat skills is less sharp focus overall, and more context use. But with Claude have 1 million tokens that became less of an issue).</p>
<p>For some skills I’m at the third iteration now. It turns out that making skills is a skill in itself, and I’m gradually improving and getting ever better results. Also every time I hit a snag I try to make the skill so that can be avoided in the future. Small granular improvements like that add up over time. (The current Elixir skill I have linked elsewhere is still on iteration 2 and will be replaced eventually).</p>
<p>Anyway, if there were calibrated true targets for what a skill, other means or naked AI should ideally achieve when given a specific requirement or prompt that would provide a definite target. Which would make it possible to complete a proper feedback loop and thus make it easier to actually achieve that level of output.</p> 
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								<p>I gave the whole thread another read and after some reflexion, I finally came up with the following analogy.</p>
<p>▸ <em>COBOL, 1959</em>. Any warehouse worker can now write code.<br>
▸ <em>SQL, 1986</em>. Any accountant can now write code.<br>
▸ <em>AI, 2025</em>. Any idiot can now write code.</p>
<p>It might sound a bit rude, but it’s essential anyway. Great developer is to be more performant/productive with COBOL instead of machine codes and with SQL instead of direct DB calls, and with AI assistant instead of a code completion in LSP.</p>
<p>A mediocre warehouse worker, a brilliant accountant, and any other person on that matter still cannot produce a robust comprehensive code.</p> 
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								<p>You forgot:</p>
<ul>
<li>C++ 1983. But only autistic masochists actually do write code</li>
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