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								<p>I haven’t written a single line of code by hand in well over a year by now and I stopped reviewing code manually altogether at least six months ago (maybe more).</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean I’m doing less engineering (quite the opposite). I’ve probably spent twice as much time defining specifications, guardrails, and thinking through the systems I’m building.  It means that my attention and skills are just going elsewhere these days, which is pretty natural to me.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Learning a song by ear forces you to engage with it more deeply, and you’re more likely to remember it later. And, if you stop playing a song, eventually you forget how to play it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I worked for a long time using both Java and C#, but I haven’t picked them up in well over 8 years (since I migrated over  to Elixir). I probably still have some vestigial “muscle memory”, but I would definetely need a good refresher on the syntax and features before trying to do anything with it.</p>
<p>But that’s just how life is, you know!? We are constantly making room for new skills and dropping the ones that are less important, it’s a matter of attention management.  To use your example: maybe you learn a couple new songs you like more and then you forget about that old one. It’s fine!</p>
<hr>
<p>There’s a <a href="https://x.com/mattpocockuk/status/2057110441864696164" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">tweet</a> from Matt Pocok I think is really helpful to this kind of discussion since people often conflate terminology all the time online, he mainly splits coding into two categories:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>Tactical</strong>: on the ground, short-term. The soldier doing the fighting.</li>
<li><strong>Strategic</strong>: high-view, long-term. The general planning the war.</li>
</ul>
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<p><strong>If you identify as a tactical programmer</strong> - a code monkey - <strong>then you are out of luck</strong>. The job has changed.</p>
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<p>I guess your question about how much manual coding you should be doing has more to do with how much you believe you are going to be needing the first skill over the second one going forward.</p>
<p>IMHO, the genie is out of the bottle and not one is putting it back. AI is not going anywhere (even when the bubble bursts). So the technology will only keep improving and become more and more widespread. What does that mean for you? I don’t know, this is not career advice; but this is also not business as usual.</p>
<p>For me personally, I only see myself coding anything by hand if doing it for fun (like picking up a new language to test and play around, etc). Other than I’m good focusing on other things and honing other skills.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/webofbits/48/39173_2.png" class="avatar"> webofbits:</div>
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<p>Most engineers eagerly rely on heavy models like Opus/Fable/etc to do the design for them.</p>
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<p>I was that but after I found even Fable 5.1 to make some really stupid calls because “it was the least bad option” (which TBF is a fair framing, our project at places is really bad we’re still expending heroic amounts of tokens and manual labor to fix it, with gradual but noticeable successes), my trust in it just hit a critically low point and I started steering with a bunch of rules like “no two-brains scenarios, ever”, “never rely on eventual consistency”, “sagas / workflows should never leave DB remnants if a 3rd party API call that is supposed to enrich those data fails”, and at least 10 others. At the end of writing those rules, it finally hit me that I should put them somewhere aside and put them both in <code>AGENTS.md</code> and a gradually emerging docs for project architecture and specs.</p>
<p>So I started leaning towards: Fable can offer me a design but don’t start PR coding until I approve or overrule it. To its credit, it promised to do that and for now, 7 PRs later, it still keeps its word, even between convos.</p>
<p>But yeah, LLMs still can suck at design, and are way too happy to keep outputting code. I am working on AST partial-similarity / duplicate detector while using ideas from various libraries in the ecosystem. Too early to report anything though, but I found trying to hand-curate tests written by Opus/Fable to be an impossibly energy-draining task so I’ll attempt to tool-enforce rules there.</p>
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<p>For more complex tasks, I tend to heads down on diagraming first then have AI to review any gaps.</p>
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<p>Yep, just  recently started the same. Sequence diagrams really do land well for the frontier models, but they still take a lot of liberties when it comes to implementing. I don’t think there’s any amount of prompts that can fix this but since I am not willing to pay for API prices and devise my own elaborate harness, I’m utilising a combo of skills / prompts /  <code>AGENTS.md</code> directives and Claude Code hooks, with very steadily increasing success.</p>
<p>Truth is though, even frontier models are extremely heavily biased towards their training data.</p> 
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<p><strong>If you identify as a tactical programmer</strong> - a code monkey - <strong>then you are out of luck</strong>. The job has changed.</p>
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<p>Eh. Mostly true but not quite. To extend your analogy: compare veteran front soldier with a rookie. Tactical skills still matter a lot. I continually stop Fable from doing overengineered solutions by centralising data and enforcing single-responsibility principle + reducing stateful modules/functions to the maximum (FCIS).</p>
<p>Though at one point you have to wonder: is that tactical, or strategic? IMO both, and they often overlap.</p> 
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								<p>Ah yes, the widening distance between strategic-level thinkers and tactical work famously creates no problems whatsoever.</p> 
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								<p>In my team we do a mix of handwritten and generated code. Empirically we have found that when using it as a pure implementer we often rewrite a lot of the code or end up re-prompting with implementation specific details. When it designs the solution (or part of it) we see less of this. I suspect this is because it doesn’t have the same understanding of what you want, or you don’t have the same ownership mentality.</p>
<p>As already mentioned, you need a lot of diligence and care to not end up with spaghetti code and tight coupling.</p>
<p>Finally, we sometimes see GenAI compromise security to solve its task. For example by removing or loosening the CSP header, or changing Ash policies.</p> 
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									<span>Creator of Cure</span>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/thiagomajesk/48/31904_2.png" class="avatar"> thiagomajesk:</div>
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<p>I’ve probably spent twice as much time defining specifications, guardrails, and thinking through the systems I’m building.</p>
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<p>I’m willing to bet a hundred dollars against a dime that to define anything on a strategic level one needs a perfect understanding of the tactics to implement that. Otherwise one is to get back a garbage, unmaintainable and unsupportable in weeks (unless we are talking about another internet shop for 5 customers.)</p>
<p>“Make me a sandwich” works well if and only if there is a bread, a sausage, and a lettuce around.</p> 
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								<p>Actually, re-reading this thread I figured out that it would have made sense to ask people to show some outcome as OSS projects before even starting to build up theories about LLM changing a world.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/thiagomajesk/48/31904_2.png" class="avatar"> thiagomajesk:</div>
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<p>I haven’t written a single line of code by hand in well over a year by now and I stopped reviewing code manually altogether at least six months ago (maybe more).</p>
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<p>That’s impressive. Years ago, the boring part for me was all the planning, sketching, de-risking, meetings, estimates, ticket creation, spreadsheets, milestones, etc. Nowadays, we’re even automating much of that too.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, interviews might still require coding without AI or even autocomplete, so I think there’s value in keeping those skills sharp.</p>
<p>I also don’t really buy the idea that “English is the new programming language.” I have a hard time believing that a bunch of Markdown files describing what we want, with potentially non-deterministic outcomes, can ultimately beat well-written, explicit code. I’d rather have a precise program than a collection of instructions hoping to produce one.</p>
<p>That said, I’ve been vibe coding a lot on side projects myself , and ultimately I’m still figuring out where the right balance is. I definitely don’t have it all figured out but I think AI workflows should not remove a human in the loop even if it slows down things a bit.</p> 
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									<span>Creator of Cure</span>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/webofbits/48/39173_2.png" class="avatar"> webofbits:</div>
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<p>I have a hard time believing that a bunch of Markdown files describing what we want, with <strong>potentially non-deterministic outcomes</strong>, can ultimately beat well-written, explicit code.</p>
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<p>The emphasis is mine.</p>
<p>You basically stated the rule of thumb distinguishing a good prompt from a garbage-in. As soon as a bunch of text might be treated in different ways (have a non-deterministic outcome,) the AI-driven development is doomed. On the other hand, the task might be stated in plain English in a deterministic way (after all, the whole category theory, being 102% deterministic, is formalized in plain English, isn’t it?)</p>
<p>And here comes the necessity to be able to write code, to understand tactics. Without that one cannot tell a well-stated task from a malformed one.</p> 
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                  Damirados
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								<p>All of the code that goes into production.</p>
<p>I did experiment a lot with varying degrees, I do have a lib that is <a href="https://github.com/emerge-elixir/emerge" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">pure slop</a>, I have used as a playground to see how far agentic coding can be pushed with different degrees of hand holding. It has served it’s purpose as a throwaway prototype and I am rewriting it by hand currently.</p>
<p>For me personally reviewing code fires up different parts of the brain than writing code, the latter being way more enjoyable while the review is just mentally exhausting.</p>
<p>I did spend a decent portion of my career in a role of a lead developer. That was very similar to “writing specs for LLMs”. I absolutely hated all the time and effort I had to put in into writing tickets. The effort needed to then do all the code reviews is multiple times that. I hate writing out tickets and reviewing code but at least in that role I got to collaborate with other team members teaching them stuff and learning a lot from them in the process. With LLM I can’t really teach it stuff (I can put some rules in some file that may or may not be considered) and it constantly writes code like it’s ragebating me.</p>
<p>I don’t think I can really make a good software design and architecture decisions if I don’t code by yourself. While coding the implementation part of my brain thinks about bigger picture and since I am lazy and don’t like typing the main thought is “How can this be designed so that none of this code that I am typing is needed”</p>
<p>On the speed and productivity front. I really can’t beat LLM on the thing it can produce in a day or a week. But any serious software project will take months or years and at that time frame and scale I don’t think generating code with an LLM is an advantage.</p>
<p>All that being said I still use LLMs a lot, basically for everything mundane and repetitive. Research and exploration. Code projects I don’t care about and I will not be woken up in the middle of the night to go fix. I hate the way LLMs “talk” like sleazy politicians beating to the point I am considering just not using them for anything anymore.</p>
<p>After all I do programing because it’s fun and intellectually challenging. Thinking of way to get make slop generator less sloppy is no fun at all, at least for me.</p>
<p>There is also a big problem of LLM being trained to give answer/solution that will please the prompter. I had a lot of situations where I was using LLM to try and evaluate approach. For example  “Given A,B and C approaches list me pros and cons of one and suggest best option for <code>requirement</code>”. And if you rollback the chat and change the wording of the <code>requirement</code> to seem like you are leaning to either option that one will become the suggested option.</p>
<p>Thank you for reading my rant and welcome tho the medieval era of Software Engineering.</p> 
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