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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/desty/48/6097_2.png" class="avatar"> Desty:</div>
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<p>I loved figuring things out and <em>writing programs</em> since getting a C64 and then Atari ST as a teen in the 1990s</p>
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<p>Amstrad CPC (mid 80’s), Amiga (early 90’s) here <img src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/images/emoji/apple/slight_smile.png?v=15" title=":slight_smile:" class="emoji" alt=":slight_smile:" loading="lazy" width="20" height="20"></p>
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<p>the people I had thought were my peers apparently hated this craft all along</p>
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<p>This I realized on my first “serious” job in the mid 90’s (“serious” == not writing video games in Z80 or MC680x0 assembly and C).</p>
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<p>Now I’m sick of LLMs, but much more importantly</p>
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<p>The fatigue is palpable, agreed. But, I think it’s more about one’s own sense of agency (and CONTROL). After all, it’s us who decide why/what/where/how at every single step. Still find it saving me a lot of time, especially when I review all it does so no substantial detour can take place. While when I feel like coding myself, I still can and do.</p> 
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<p>As I mentioned, not comparable at all to free-form text generation imo. No matter the complexity, chess and go are closed-form problems and evaluating the correctness in a loop is as simple as looking at the rules.</p>
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<p>My point here is that models can learn from self-play. If models can become embodied - in a robotic interface - where it can explore the world, try to do things, fail, learn from that and try again - then they could actually begin building meaningful world models.</p>
<p>More broadly, I agree we’re unlikely to see AGI without a breakthrough on continuous learning, and that may not be possible with anything close to current architectures.</p> 
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								<p>I don’t so much hate programming, it’s more that getting into it for the “wrong” reasons has caught up with me.  I love the craft, designing the code itself and I love working collaboratively with skilled craftspeople who care about what they are producing, even if “it’s just a job.”</p>
<p>I’m basically an art school kid who got into programming because being a graphic designer sucked and working with programmers gave me insight into how creative programming languages are.  I <em>love</em> programming languages, but it was clear long ago that the majority of people in the industry just see them as a means to an end.  That’s fine, it is what it is.  As is what <a class="mention" href="/u/volcov" rel="nofollow">@volcov</a> talked about, it is what it is that so many people are defaulting to talking to a machine instead of their colleagues, though I think this might start catching up with people.</p>
<p>As far as hating AI (I love that article, <a class="mention" href="/u/gregoriomiranda" rel="nofollow">@gregoriomiranda</a>), it’s more the companies I hate than the tech itself.  I was sick of big tech before AI, but these companies are a special kind of despicable and disgusting.  I’m unemployed right now so thankfully don’t have to give them any money, or have an employer give them money on my behalf.  I’m honestly kind of waiting things out to see what happens while also considering options outside of tech.</p> 
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/volcov/48/39013_2.png" class="avatar"> volcov:</div>
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<p>There are moments when I wonder if I’m just being the kind of person who “doesn’t like change”</p>
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<p>I’ve wondered the same about myself, but Idk… I’ve loved trying new languages, technology stacks, paradigms, and ways of doing things throughout most of my career, but this has been different. It feels a bit like turning my brain off… The job has become more about textbook researching systems design in order to know whether the AI is bullshitting me or not about the big decisions, and reading some of the code it generates (at least on the most important/critical parts, because one can generate so much code so fast, I can’t even read all of it anymore) to make sure it didn’t do anything absolutely atrocious when it comes to smaller decisions…</p>
<p>Before LLMs, there was also a lot of textbook researching but a lot of it also had to be coupled with rolling up my sleeves and giving a lot of thought to how to write code that translated those systems design concepts to code my colleagues could understand and easily work with (whether that meant adopting it, or modifying/expanding it). Sometimes it also meant adapting things to our own specific use case which sometimes deviated from the patterns. One could still do a bit of that in theory, but there’s so much code and the expectation is to just churn code nonstop, I feel there’s less time to do it. Here’s hoping we reach some sort of happy medium where we slow down a bit to a point where we produce more code faster than before, but still leave time to round the edges to the shape we need it to be by hand.</p> 
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								<p>Anyone got more of that “gainful employment”?</p> 
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								<p>I think I’m looking for the same “balance” you mentioned.<br>
I relate to what <a class="mention" href="/u/sodapopcan" rel="nofollow">@sodapopcan</a> said: I’ve always really enjoyed learning languages ​​and refining how to write readable code, following best practices, and so on.<br>
I used to be the person on the team who would come up with those kinds of initiatives (the ones not everyone is a fan of, of course, haha), like discussing a style guide within the guild, establishing a coding identity for the team, and always looking for a sustainable way to move the project forward.</p>
<p>These days, I keep hearing the phrase “code doesn’t matter anymore,” so this initiative stopped making sense, there’s no reason for me to keep “polishing” the code, even though it was something that made me happy!</p>
<p>One “fear” I have is that if we ever need to go back to writing code the old way, I already feel a sense of preemptive dread about how much work it will be to understand the code we’re shipping today (without worrying about readability), and “translate” it back for human eyes, haha.</p> 
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								<p>I can relate to this, but I have a more positive long term outlook.</p>
<p>In my experience LLM’s can adequately generate code in a narrow set of contexts, e.g. tools.</p>
<p>Many companies are going to degrade to the point that change by human or agent is not possible (worst case).</p>
<p>This will result in rescue projects, the re-employment of those with critical thinking, foundational knowledge etc.</p>
<p>The way I am looking at this is that I need to ride it out, for how long I do not know.</p>
<p>I wrote a bit about the aspects that LLM can not (and will never) be able to help us with:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ai-hyperliminality-kris-leech-5iqxe/" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">AI and Hyperliminality</a>.</p> 
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								<p>I understand your concerns, but I personally am more concerned about everything unethical, uneconomical, and environmentally destructive related to building and running LLMs, which are the foundation of almost everything done with AI in software engineering today.</p>
<p>It’s shameful that a community (I’m talking about my community here, the academic one) that once cared about free/open source software, energy consumption, sustainability has so quickly accepted all of this and is working to help those who do it.</p>
<p>Two great books on the problems of AI:</p>
<p>Empire of AI</p>
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<p>The AI Con</p>
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<h3><a href="https://thecon.ai" target="_blank" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">THE AI CON</a></h3>

  <p>How to Fight Big Tech's Hype and Create the Future We Want</p>


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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/volcov/48/39013_2.png" class="avatar"> volcov:</div>
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<p>These days, I keep hearing the phrase “code doesn’t matter anymore,” so this initiative stopped making sense, there’s no reason for me to keep “polishing” the code, even though it was something that made me happy!</p>
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<p>ikr. But I also think we’ve yet to see the consequences of this… LLMs have limits too, and can corner themselves. I’ve also seen them play whack-a-mole by making changes that break something, fixing that, but then something else breaks, etc. Sure with significant testing this is caught, but it still takes the LLM a lot more work and iteration to get things stable, which in turn means more tokens consumed, which is more money spent, etc. All great news for Anthropic, OpenAI, and company, but not so good for developers, especially those of us who don’t work at a company with tons of resources to spend on self-hosting powerful models or the most expensive Claude and ChatGPT plans…</p>
<p>I think good code (not just good testing habits) still works for mitigating these things. I wonder how one could go about proving this, though.</p> 
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