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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/48.png" class="avatar"> StefanHoutzager:</div>
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<p>This is less general: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16288486" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16288486 </a></p>
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<p>Fair enough.</p>
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<img alt="" width="24" height="24" src="https://forum.elixirforum.com/user_avatar/forum.elixirforum.com/jeremyjh/48/5995_2.png" class="avatar"> jeremyjh:</div>
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<p>I attended a five-day training on IBM’s toolset in 2008.</p>
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<p>To be fair there are just too many other reasons why something like this could go off the rails.</p>
<p>With a brilliant tool and a competent Business Process Analyst (BPA) five days may just be enough time. However all too often some tools are sold as some kind of universal panacea to be wielded by people who are responsible for conducting “the business” but who don’t necessarily have the requisite BPA mindset that the tool is based on. I’m skeptical that a non-BPA could acquire the necessary mindset in five days (apart from being trained on the tool).</p>
<p>Often these type of ventures fail because of “people problems”. In the end the education of the tool user is more important. A competent BPA is an asset to the business; the right tools could make a BPA more effective - given the right circumstances.</p>
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<p>A process diagram is generated from an analysis of the code?</p>
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<p>Code-first asset generation tends to lead to more obfuscated results. In the end model-first generation should be more likely to succeed. However a successful result still relies on the tool user having a solid understanding of the relevant modeling principles.</p> 
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<p>With a brilliant tool and a competent Business Process Analyst (BPA) five days may just be enough time.</p>
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<p>Oh, I didn’t work on the project that used the tools - we were evaluating it at the same time as another project and were included in the training as more of a courtesy or sales effort.  Despite a lot of pressure to use these tools we ended up writing a traditional app and our project worked out fine. But I had regular contact with people from the department that adopted it and heard about their progress or lack of. They did train a bunch of people but most of the work was done by consultants who had more experience but of course that doesn’t mean it wasn’t largely a people problem or management problem. I’m sure someone, somewhere in the world has used that toolset successfully. But I’m deeply skeptical it is an efficient or reliable way to deliver the desired objectives.</p> 
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								<p>I think the issue is BPM tools are marketed toward senior management generally involve high touch sales and like most “enterprise” products generally don’t have much love from developers.</p> 
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								<p>For clarity: a bpmn modeler does not generate code, each model is persisted in xml. It is this xml that you can interpret in a backend language like elixir. I dare not think of a tool that generates a bpmn model from code. Keep in mind also that these tools are meant for orchestration only (and process mining / management). The bpmn contains pointers to services / forms etc, but no details about those.<br>
Maybe you can try an event storming session with a bpmn editor instead of stickies, on a big screen. The screen would look like <a href="https://demo.bpmn.io/new" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">BPMN Editor | bpmn-js modeler Demo | demo.bpmn.io</a> (this is not the complete modeler, the real one contains a properties editor on the right and there may be more, I send the link just to give an idea).</p> 
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								<p>Now that I’ve found this thread I’ll have to give a write up soon.</p>
<p>Short version though: BPM generally aligns with ISO certifications that companies aim for which require documenting business processes. Then you move from being able to take a flow chart and turn it into something that runs. Then you start hooking nodes of that flow chart into other systems to automate away some of the human bits where possible.</p>
<p>The power in it is the ability to start simple and then improve as you find the process being repeated a lot. Anybody can write up a process and drop it in a folder on a network drive to say “this is our on-boarding process” but without a system to enforce it, it probably won’t be.</p>
<p>With BPM in place you start with essentially a flow charted checklist, then you start routing it to different people based on responses in that checklist.</p>
<p>My interest comes because I see a lot of benefit from it for my wife’s small business. It could make her life a lot easier for managing everything from signing up new patients, filing insurance claims, handling employee license renewals, patient discharge, etc. Unfortunately, the systems are pretty complicated as most seem geared toward larger companies…and most are written in Java as well.</p>
<p>It’s very much a glue system that handles talking to both humans and APIs.</p>
<p>Simple examples would be something like an on boarding process for new employees that steps through paperwork, HR, benefits, legal stuff, systems access, etc. When you are done you are looking at talking to multiple people to ensures proper bits have been covered, creating email and calendar access, granting access to specific systems, etc. The whole process might take a few days, including check points and reminders. Somebody may need to review where each person is in the process and multiple people may be on-boarded at the same time.</p>
<p>BPM creates a way for that to happen in a manner that can be visually reviewed, understood, enforced and then updated.</p> 
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								<p>I think that too. What often is not seen (and even looked away from by those in the “higher” ranks!) is that modeling in bpmn is programming. Only with a language that contains other symbols. It has bothered me all my programming life, this underappreciation of programmers and overvaluation of “doing a more functional job”. I have seen lots of developers take over this attitude.</p> 
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								<p>I find this a good paper about the value of workflow engines <a href="https://blog.bernd-ruecker.com/bizdevops-the-true-value-proposition-of-workflow-engines-f342509ba8bb" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">https://blog.bernd-ruecker.com/bizdevops-the-true-value-proposition-of-workflow-engines-f342509ba8bb</a> .</p>
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<p>Looking beyond the low-code myth</p>
<p>Whenever you implement core business logic you have to discuss it with a lot of stakeholders and having a graphical representation is a huge help in doing so. This is why there are a lot of methodologies out there to capture business logic visually, like Event Storming, domain modeling and of course process modeling with BPMN.</p>
<p>BPMN is an ISO standard and its beauty is that it defines a business readable graphical visualization that is also directly executable on a workflow engine. A BPMN model therefore is also an XML file a workflow engine can understand.</p>
<p>Compared to other languages, BPMN is a good choice as it is really widespread and very mature. I will not dive into details of the BPMN elements but I can report that it was sufficient for all real-life use cases we saw in the last years — which are a lot.</p>
<p>It is about living documentation — not low code!<br>
The benefit of directly executable models is what Cyrille Martraire named living documentation. The model is not an input of the requirement phase that will be outdated once the first line of code is written. No, the model will be executed and is the code. It is always in-sync with the implementation during the whole life-cycle.</p>
<p>Unfortunately this is often connected with zero or low code approaches which try to get rid of the developer. In our experience these approaches do not work well, at least not in non-trivial use cases. I see BPMN models simply as a different way of writing code which should still be done by a developer. Of course he/she communicates with business stakeholders to do the right thing. And the true benefit of using BPMN and a workflow engine is to facilitate the collaboration between the different roles!</p>
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<p>See the link for the links in the article.</p> 
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								<p>I’d agree completely with the living documentation description. It’s basically living documentation + information flow + api chaining.</p> 
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								<p>Your quote “BPMN is the most underappreciated technology in our field IMO.”<br>
appeared today in this article: <a href="https://zeebe.io/blog/2018/08/bpmn-for-microservices-orchestration-a-primer-part-1/" class="inline-onebox" rel="noopener nofollow ugc">BPMN and Microservices Orchestration, Part 1 of 2 | Camunda | Camunda</a></p> 
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                  brightball
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								<p>LOL. Wow. I gotta watch my comments.</p>
<p>It really is underappreciated. With all of the web services that are out there, BPM gives a glue + rules + human relay interface to it. It’s largely ignored when it comes to programmers, because we naturally gravitate toward “I’ll just hook up to this API, then write a few conditional statements…” and we one-off that stuff to death rather than using BPM.</p>
<p>Amazon even has a simple web based one called SWF minus that graphical bits.</p> 
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